Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 17:09:02 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #204 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Uniforms (SEXTONR003@hawaii.rr.com) 2. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Roots_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 3. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Roots_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 4. Master J.R. West in Wisconsin (DPRYGA) 5. RE: Re: Dobok question (Wallace, John) 6. Re: the dough boy (ncahoots@comcast.net) 7. Re: hapkido styles (Klaas Barends) 8. The grey hanbok (michael tomlinson) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: To: Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 08:41:44 -1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Uniforms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm thinking about having some Hawaiian print dobaks made. Maybe pants that go to about 3 inches below the knee (for tidal purposes) and 3 inches below the elbows (to show off bulging, tanned forearms). Any of you guys try to purchase or copy my uniforms, I'll do the TGT thang on yore punkin heads! --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 13:55:56 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Roots_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Fred: ".....I didn't realize Hapkido had Chinese roots in their wrist manipulation techniques. I thought it was directly imported from Japan from Mr. Yong Sul Choi. Any Chinese influence would be seen in the kicking techniques. Where can I get accurate information regarding the history and techniques of Hapkido. What is the difference between Aikijutsu and Chin Na?....." This is not an easy subject to discuss especially for Westerners. We always seem to like our material cut-&-dried, and don't seem to do well with shades of grey, but I will use a single example and see if I can get the idea across to you. Mind you, we are talking about "influences" here which can be very different from simply handing a clear, discrete package of information, but work with me on this, and I will give you an example of how such things can happen. In the 10th century there was a Song Emperor named Taizu who is remembered for organizing a Long Fist Style (Chang Chuan). As with most Chinese boxing it is a combination of striking, kicking and grappling techniques. In order to better organize things certain biomechanics were given easy (for Chinese culture) to remember names. Of these 32 methods, or techniques, or postures, or whatever name you want to give them I will use just one called "Single Whip". Some say that the name comes from the use of a whip or lash and others say it refers to the abusive "single whip" taxation system that favored the rich and persecuted the middle class. Whatever. I favor the latter interpretation because when you execute the technique on a partner it becomes the ever-popular "clothesline" technique as performed in response to a punching attack. There is something sympatico about a taxation system and a throat technique in my book but maybe thats just me. Now skip ahead to the 16th century and Genral Qi, Jiguang is supposed to fight Japanese pirates with poorly trained Ming army of recruits. He figures most boxing is too "flowery" so he "borrows" techniques from 16 major styles or which Taizu Long Fist is prominent. In fact the 32 techniques in his Boxing Canon are, word for word, exactly what was in Taizus' orginal curriculum. Listed in the curriculum is still that Single Whip technique. Now, skip ahead to the a few decades and the Korean King is pretty embarrassed about the Korean national armys' performance against the Japanese and has cadre from the Ming help train his troops. Guess what they relied on? Gen. Qi's manual-- afterall if it works don't fix it, right? And even later, in the 18th century when the Korean king decides to organize a training manual of their own, guess who he draws on--- quite heavily. The only hitch is that the Kwon Bup hyung in the MYTBTJ is now a two man form that teaches the techniques by matching an attacking technique with a comparable technique which will cancel-out (not over come) the attack. Most people like the idea of winning and not just breaking-even so the Kwon Bup chapter of the MYTBTJ fell in to disrepute. In the same 18th century this same material of the General was used to organize Chen Tai Chi and the "Cannon Fist" form is General Qi's/Taizus' material now practiced as Chen Tai Chi Chuan. You can still see the "Single Whip" technique and its still called that. OK, now you asked about Choi and I really don't want to get into this whole mess about him, but lets take a look at something. If you grab Kondo's book or DRAJJ (thats what Choi is supposed to have studied, right?)and take a look at "kirikaeishi" (pg 92-93)or grab Omiya and examine "tsuki-uke ryu no agito" (pg 92-93) or the cover of Saitos' book (volume 4) TRADITIONAL AIKIDO you wil find applications of the same "Single Whip" biomechanic. Nothing wrong here, except that the influence of Chinese Boxing had already introduced this material to the Korean people earlier, but the only person who gets the PR is someone like Choi who brought/may have brought it to Korea from Japan in the 20th century. Long Fist remains one of the four major styles of Chinese Boxing in Korea but the material never seems to get equal billing with Choi and his students. Why do you suppose that is? Now you asked how this influence could be and I have used a single technique to give an example. Why the Korean culture is bound and determined to mimic Japanese MA when they already have quite a culture of martial Science of their own bests the heck out of me. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 13:57:18 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Roots_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Fred: ".....I didn't realize Hapkido had Chinese roots in their wrist manipulation techniques. I thought it was directly imported from Japan from Mr. Yong Sul Choi. Any Chinese influence would be seen in the kicking techniques. Where can I get accurate information regarding the history and techniques of Hapkido. What is the difference between Aikijutsu and Chin Na?....." This is not an easy subject to discuss especially for Westerners. We always seem to like our material cut-&-dried, and don't seem to do well with shades of grey, but I will use a single example and see if I can get the idea across to you. Mind you, we are talking about "influences" here which can be very different from simply handing a clear, discrete package of information, but work with me on this, and I will give you an example of how such things can happen. In the 10th century there was a Song Emperor named Taizu who is remembered for organizing a Long Fist Style (Chang Chuan). As with most Chinese boxing it is a combination of striking, kicking and grappling techniques. In order to better organize things certain biomechanics were given easy (for Chinese culture) to remember names. Of these 32 methods, or techniques, or postures, or whatever name you want to give them I will use just one called "Single Whip". Some say that the name comes from the use of a whip or lash and others say it refers to the abusive "single whip" taxation system that favored the rich and persecuted the middle class. Whatever. I favor the latter interpretation because when you execute the technique on a partner it becomes the ever-popular "clothesline" technique as performed in response to a punching attack. There is something sympatico about a taxation system and a throat technique in my book but maybe thats just me. Now skip ahead to the 16th century and Genral Qi, Jiguang is supposed to fight Japanese pirates with poorly trained Ming army of recruits. He figures most boxing is too "flowery" so he "borrows" techniques from 16 major styles or which Taizu Long Fist is prominent. In fact the 32 techniques in his Boxing Canon are, word for word, exactly what was in Taizus' orginal curriculum. Listed in the curriculum is still that Single Whip technique. Now, skip ahead to the a few decades and the Korean King is pretty embarrassed about the Korean national armys' performance against the Japanese and has cadre from the Ming help train his troops. Guess what they relied on? Gen. Qi's manual-- afterall if it works don't fix it, right? And even later, in the 18th century when the Korean king decides to organize a training manual of their own, guess who he draws on--- quite heavily. The only hitch is that the Kwon Bup hyung in the MYTBTJ is now a two man form that teaches the techniques by matching an attacking technique with a comparable technique which will cancel-out (not over come) the attack. Most people like the idea of winning and not just breaking-even so the Kwon Bup chapter of the MYTBTJ fell in to disrepute. In the same 18th century this same material of the General was used to organize Chen Tai Chi and the "Cannon Fist" form is General Qi's/Taizus' material now practiced as Chen Tai Chi Chuan. You can still see the "Single Whip" technique and its still called that. OK, now you asked about Choi and I really don't want to get into this whole mess about him, but lets take a look at something. If you grab Kondo's book or DRAJJ (thats what Choi is supposed to have studied, right?)and take a look at "kirikaeishi" (pg 92-93)or grab Omiya and examine "tsuki-uke ryu no agito" (pg 92-93) or the cover of Saitos' book (volume 4) TRADITIONAL AIKIDO you wil find applications of the same "Single Whip" biomechanic. Nothing wrong here, except that the influence of Chinese Boxing had already introduced this material to the Korean people earlier, but the only person who gets the PR is someone like Choi who brought/may have brought it to Korea from Japan in the 20th century. Long Fist remains one of the four major styles of Chinese Boxing in Korea but the material never seems to get equal billing with Choi and his students. Why do you suppose that is? Now you asked how this influence could be and I have used a single technique to give an example. Why the Korean culture is bound and determined to mimic Japanese MA when they already have quite a culture of martial Science of their own beats the heck out of me. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 16:16:41 -0500 From: DPRYGA To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Master J.R. West in Wisconsin Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I would like to extend an invitation for all list members to come out for a great day of Hapkido training with Master J.R. West and the Instructors of Wests Hapkido. They will be in Mosinee Wisconsin on Saturday, May 31st to put an all day clinic. Feel free to contact me for more information about this event or if I can be of any other assistance..........Dave --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Dobok question Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 13:23:26 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Bruce I rarely wear my TKD top (and never wear the belt) outside of class. Usually I'm wearing a t-shirt under the jacket (if not, there's one in my bag). I wouldn't be opposed to wearing different sorts of trousers, and I've always felt ambivalent about belts. To me there's only one color worth mentioning, and it’s a divider between those who know the basics of their art and those who are still learning. -JW -----Original Message----- From: bsims@midwesthapkido.com [mailto:bsims@midwesthapkido.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 4:24 AM ...The uniform itself would be constructed of a heavy canvas with gathered ankles. The jacket would NOT be worn in class but taken off at the beginning of class and the top would be a white tee which is actually what would have happened if years ago people had sought out MA instruction. At the end of class the jacket would be donned and worn outside of the waist. No colored belt. The reason I am suggesting this is that most folks who practice KMA still use the sort uniform prevalent in Japanese arts and I feel as though this only contributes to the confusion between the martial traditions of the two cultures. Koreans have their own uniforms--- why not use them. Any thoughts on this? Best Wishes, Bruce --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 4/24/2003 --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 17:40:44 -0400 From: ncahoots@comcast.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] the dough boy To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I guess he had to draw attention to his uniform because "whats the point of wearing your favorite rocketship underpants, if nobody asks to see them " Chuck Callahan --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 23:40:41 +0200 From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: hapkido styles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > My personal study of Tae Kwon Do resembles Japanese > karate, my sons' instructor favors a more Chinese > flavor. I wonder how this happened, its all supposed > to be Tae Kwon Do! That's the fun of it, it's all different!!!! It's not a bug it's a feature! It gives you the chance to choose what's right for YOU..!!!! Why do people always want everything to be instituonalized (how the hell do I spell that word?)..???? Many styles = choice Choice = freedom Freedom = good The same counts for hapkido. Just find the style that suits you Of course, in reality there is usually only one hapkido school in your neighbourhood, and you are lucky when it is a good one. So there really isn't that much choice :-( -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 00:06:36 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] The grey hanbok Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I understand where your coming from Bruce I too have seen the uniform that is adopted in Sin Moo now, I have no problem with it, I don't own one but it is cool, it actually reminds me a lot of the old uniforms we used when I studied ninjutsu with Stephen Hayes,, I kind of like the tie down pants, keeps you from stepping on your own pants leg, totally opposite of the hakama, I also used to have one of the old Moo Duk Kwan Doboks that Rudy and Ray are talking about back in the early 70's when I was with Y.J. Chung,,, my thing is that I have had SO many different styles of uniforms over the years that it kind of amuses me at how much weight and importance everyone gives the uniform,, it is one of the only physical activities that I have been associated with that does this, the uniform to me is nothing more than something you wear while you bust your ass working out I get a kick out of Judo Gene LeBell with his pink judo gi,, that about says it all in my opinion, this old grizzled tough as nails martial artist that can beat the stuffing out of you and wears a pink uniform,,, I don't want one of those though! I like sticking with my old grappling roots and say "let's work out,, I don't care what your wearing as long as I can still throw, stomp, kick, chop, joint lock, and choke you"!!!! Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustugold@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest