Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 09:49:05 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #226 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Roundhouses (Burdick, Dakin R) 2. Repetitive Strain (Accumulative Injury) Syndrome (Chosondo@aol.com) 3. Repetitive Stress Syndrome (Dena M) 4. Roundhouse Kicks (Calvin Berlin) 5. Honesty and the Dakin splat technique :) (Ray Terry) 6. Re: training with repetitive stress syndrome (Richard Zaruba) 7. Re: secret kicks (Michael Whalen) 8. RE: Secret kick (Farral, Kim) 9. Re: Re: secret kicks (Ray Terry) 10. TKD scholarship (Ray Terry) 11. Re: young kids in HKD or Jujitsu (scottm@scubadiving.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:42:42 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Roundhouses Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray wrote: >But a couple more thoughts on the RH. Part of the problem may be the "we have that, too" syndrome that frequently enters into things. You see a technique that is a bit different, perhaps more effective than the ones you've been doing and it quickly becomes yours and a part of your style. Sometimes this occurs honestly and sometimes not. e.g. this might be the case w/i Taekkyon. Seems like the RH-type kicks I usually see there are more swing kicks, less use of the knee. Yet once a karate-type RH motion made it to the Korean mainland it was -probably- quickly integrated into the syllabus of Taekkyon kicks. ??? This had a LOT of different ideas in it. How about we take one at a time? 1. Adoption of more effective techniques: A case of tradition vs. efficiency. I think most people would change if they felt the new technique was actually more effective in a variety of situations. 2. Honest adoption...: Huh? What makes adoption honest or not? If it works, do it. Wally Jay always calls this "borrowing." 3. This might be the case with taekkyon: Again, huh? What do you mean? Pick one: a. Taekkyeon honestly appropriated roundhouse kick from some other system b. " dishonestly " " " " " " c. Some other system honestly appropriated roundhouse kick from t'aekkyeon d. " " " dishonestly " " " " 4. Adoption must take place from another style: What happened to innovation? Frankly I think people tend to get too hung up on seminars and not enough on working out and experimenting. All those techniques came from experimentation in the first place, anyways. 5. karate-type motion making it to Korean mainland: The movement here was probably the other way around. China is much more likely to have had a sophisticated kicking system before Japan, and that means it would come from China, through Korea, to Japan. Unless of course the technique was coming up from southern China through the Ryukyu islands. But isn't "Northern kicks, southern fists" a cliche in Chinese martial arts? Ray also wrote: >And a thought on the kata/forms and kicks issue... If, and this is a big if, Karate was really a standup grappling art instead of a kick/punch art -and- the kata were really ways to break and lock joints as well as roadmaps to the vital points on the body, then the kata become less a way to practice kicking an punching a more a way to review basic motion and movement as well as review the location of the body's pressure points. Thus the various percussive techniques might have been less developed (e.g. fewer types of kicks) 100 years ago. At least in the Karate arts... ??? Probably not. Forms should be practiced in a number of ways: 1. As a blocking and striking art 2. As a grappling art 3. As a throwing art 4. As a weapons art 5. As a pressure point art (maybe -- I'm still unconvinced that this is different than #1) Also, Okinawan karate was noted in western literature by the 1880s when the practice of locals breaking pots with their fists was described. Of course, British tars used to break planks to show the strength of their fists, so maybe boxing was the original martial art. Or maybe people do similar things all over the world. Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Chosondo@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 10:01:22 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Repetitive Strain (Accumulative Injury) Syndrome Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 5/22/2003 9:29:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > After training in self defenses extensively this evening, I resolved to > ask a question of this group. I have a horrible case of repetitive > stress syndrome in my (dominant) right hand. It is not carpel tunnel - > all tests, electroshocks, probes, etc. have proven this - so surgery > won't help. The more I practice self defenses the sharper the pain in > my right hand becomes. I'm handicapped doing simple things; tonight, > when pulling a can from a supermarket shelf, the searing pain crumpled > my hand. Also, my grip is often weakened when I practice, leaving me > with a sense that my technique is rather impractical. > > Might I suggest that you find someone who is skilled in the treatment of myofascial pain syndromes. Specifically, someone who is thoroughly grounded in Dr. Janet Travell's protocols. I see this sort of thing clinically on a daily basis and. It is most often due to active myofascial trigger point (MTrP) activity in the forearm extensors and/or flexors. Nerve entrapment at the level of the cubital tunnel and carpal tunnel must be determined and ruled out. Let me know if I can be of futher help to you. Ian A. Cyrus, Headmaster International Chosondo Federation Choson Kwon Bup - Hapkido - Taekwondo 7252 Valley Ave Philadelphia, PA 19128 215-483-5057 --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:07:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Dena M To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Repetitive Stress Syndrome Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello list members, I read the list all the time but don't post much, thought I would try and help on this one, since I also have this problem from time to time. You can find a hand splint at most drug stores, wear it at night. It usually takes about 3 weeks for the pain to go away if I am having a real bad episode. During the day you can also wear the splint, but it hinders a lot of activities you can do with your hands/wrist. If the pain is so bad that you can't pick up a can, you should probably wear it during the day for a while. Only take it off if you need to type, etc. Don't train for 3 weeks using your hands/wrist, or until the pain is gone. You can do other things, just give your hands/wrist time to heal. After you feel better, if you start to feel a little pain again, just wear the splints at night. I have been able to keep this problem under control for many years this way. Hope this helps you. Dena Martin Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:22:51 -0400 From: Rain Breaw Subject: [The_Dojang] training with repetitive stress syndrome Hi! Like the recent poster from Cape Town, I am a green belt who has been training in Tang Soo Do for just over a year. I've also been silently following this listserv for about a month, and have enjoyed the conversations and the information that you offer. Thank you for allowing me to do so. After training in self defenses extensively this evening, I resolved to ask a question of this group. I have a horrible case of repetitive stress syndrome in my (dominant) right hand. It is not carpel tunnel - all tests, electroshocks, probes, etc. have proven this - so surgery won't help. The more I practice self defenses the sharper the pain in my right hand becomes. I'm handicapped doing simple things; tonight, when pulling a can from a supermarket shelf, the searing pain crumpled my hand. Also, my grip is often weakened when I practice, leaving me with a sense that my technique is rather impractical. I am loath to give up on self defenses, as I feel that they are incredibly important. The doctors have said they can't do anything for me. I know that there are enough techies like me out there who make it through similar handicaps, and so I'm hoping that a member of this list has some knowledge and advice. I would be very grateful for any recommendations members of this list might have to offer. Thank you! Tang soo, Rain --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 09:12:20 -0500 From: "Calvin Berlin" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Roundhouse Kicks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce wrote: "The modern TKD and TSD hyung seem to use the technique quite freely along with the Sidekick" I'm not sure what Bruce meant by modern, but I'd like to clarify. The Taeguk series of poomse in TKD uses the roundhouse only twice and both times it appears in Taeguk Yuk Jang. This series of poomse predominantly uses variations of the front kick and side kick. Pil Sung Cal +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++ This electronic mail transmission contains information from P & H Mining Equipment which is confidential, and is intended only for the use of the proper addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us immediately at the return address on this transmission, or by telephone at (414) 671-4400, and delete this message and any attachments from your system. Unauthorized use, copying, disclosing, distributing, or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this transmission is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++ --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:13:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Honesty and the Dakin splat technique :) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > 2. Honest adoption...: Huh? What makes adoption honest or not? If it > works, do it. Wally Jay always calls this "borrowing." Easy. An honest adoption imho would be where I would say "This is the Dakin splat fall. When you fall on top of someone, they go splat." Dishonest adoption would be even tho I maybe learned the Dakin splat fall from Dakin I would say, "This is the Heavy Fall, it has been in our style for many many moons. It can even be seen in the wall art of our ancient caves in the midwest." :) As another example, a friend over in the Eskrima forum has a good way of describing how to keep your left hand up in a fight. He terms it "staying on the phone". Think about it... Now I could just start using that phrase in my own teaching, like I made it up, or I could attribute it to Marc. Personally I chose the latter. Ray "Still tying to master the Dakin splat" Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 09:19:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] training with repetitive stress syndrome From: Richard Zaruba To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Rain, I have a suggestion for your condition. I would recommend that you find a hand therapist or physical therapist to evaluate your condition. I have known several people that have conditions similar to what you describe that were successfully treated with specialized soft tissue mobilization techniques. My mother had a similar condition and when she was referred to a physical therapist that specialized in manual therapy she overcame the condition in about eight weeks and has not had problems since. I got a chance to ask the therapist about it and she explained that in my mothers case it was caused by shortening of the soft tissue and not narrowing of the carpal tunnel. From what I was told the shortened soft tissue can compress the nerves in the area resulting in pain and or numbness, but it is dependent on the biomechanical position of the upper extremity. From my doctoral studies here at UND and the questions I have asked of several of the doctors and professors this seems to be a valid explanation. I can give you a longer explanation on exactly what I found if you would like, I will send it to you off the list. Back to the original suggestion see if you can find an appropriate therapist to evaluate your condition. Hope this helps. Rich > > Hi! > > Like the recent poster from Cape Town, I am a green belt who has been > training in Tang Soo Do for just over a year. I've also been silently > following this listserv for about a month, and have enjoyed the > conversations and the information that you offer. Thank you for > allowing me to do so. > > After training in self defenses extensively this evening, I resolved to > ask a question of this group. I have a horrible case of repetitive > stress syndrome in my (dominant) right hand. It is not carpel tunnel - > all tests, electroshocks, probes, etc. have proven this - so surgery > won't help. The more I practice self defenses the sharper the pain in > my right hand becomes. I'm handicapped doing simple things; tonight, > when pulling a can from a supermarket shelf, the searing pain crumpled > my hand. Also, my grip is often weakened when I practice, leaving me > with a sense that my technique is rather impractical. > > I am loath to give up on self defenses, as I feel that they are > incredibly important. The doctors have said they can't do anything for > me. I know that there are enough techies like me out there who make it > through similar handicaps, and so I'm hoping that a member of this list > has some knowledge and advice. > > I would be very grateful for any recommendations members of this list > might have to offer. > > Thank you! Tang soo, > Rain _______________________________________________________________________ Richard Zaruba Department of Anatomy & Cell Biology School of Medicine and Health Science University of North Dakota 501 North Columbia Road P.O. Box 9037 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9037 zaruba@medicine.nodak.edu 701.777.2576 work 701.777.2477 fax --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Michael Whalen" To: "dojang digest" Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 09:21:46 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: secret kicks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You can find this kick and many more in my book "Secret Kicks of the Masters" available for only $49.95 (cash in advance). For a limited time you will also receive "Secret Punches of the Masters" at no extra charge. michael whalen KSWnut --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Farral, Kim" To: 'Dojang' Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 10:15:50 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Secret kick Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In order to learn the Secret kick...You must Climb the "Mountain of Knowledge" and seek out the "Grand Master Hermit"...Only He can provide the Wisdom necessary to Learn the "Secret Kick"...first you must discover the Location of the "Mountain of Knowledge" on your own... Pil Seung! The One and Only "Tink" Kim G. Farral 5th Dan TKD ************************************ If this email is not intended for you, or you are not responsible for the delivery of this message to the addressee, please note that this message may contain ITT Privileged/Proprietary Information. In such a case, you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. You should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Information contained in this message that does not relate to the business of ITT is neither endorsed by nor attributable to ITT. ************************************ --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: secret kicks To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I know we've had a lot of fun with the secret kick question, but it is difficult to not respond "den dont do dat" when someone asks "doctor, doctor, it hurts when I do dis". :) Some things to consider... Does your instructor speak with a strong accept? Might he (she?) have really said something other than 'secret kick'? Did you ask one of the 2nd or 3rd or higher dan ranks in the school what was meant by your instructor's statement? Or ask them to give you a hint? Just some honest questions. Good luck... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD scholarship Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding... Attention Graduating Seniors Are you going to college? Are you looking for ways to help pay for your college education? Do you consider yourself an accomplished athlete? If you answered yes to any of the above questions, then you should apply for the: 2003 Junior Olympics $5000 Scholarship Award (2 scholarships will be given: One Male and one Female) Please submit all applications to your state president. Each state may submit one male and one female to be considered for the scholarship awards. Each applicant must meet the following criteria: 1. Be a graduating senior from an accredited High School in the year of the award 2. Be recommended in writing by the High School principal 3. Be accepted to an accredited college in the same year as the award consideration 4. Be an accomplished Taekwondo athlete at the National Level 5. Possess high academic achievement (GPA, etc.) 6. Make outstanding contributions in the local community 7. 5ubmit a 500 word essay on why you should win the scholarship A panel of Educators from the Orlando area will review the applications and decide on the final 3 males and 3 females. The USTU officers will make the final decision to be announced at the "Celebration of Athletes" at the Junior Olgmpics. --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 12:02:43 -0400 (EDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: young kids in HKD or Jujitsu Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net can't speak to jujitsu, but on hap ki do, my own opinion is that teaching kids the kicks, punches, rolling, & falling in hap ki do is fine. i personally would not teach much of the "soft" side(e.g. joint locks, throws, ki development, etc). i feel that kids(and even some adults) simply don't have the maturity for these advanced techniques. heck, sometimes i wonder if i do and i'm in my 30s :) master west, master timmerman--would you gentlemen give your thoughts on this? i would like to know what more experienced instructors think. Jeremy said "I know this has been discussed before, but I was wondering about the advantages and disadvantages about teaching young kids (5-10) HKD or Jujitsu? Thanks." --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustugold@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest