Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 06:43:03 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #254 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: ITF - juche (John Wallace) 2. Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #249 -msg 8 Dojang etiquette (Raymond Navarro) 3. Skeeters and ta'maters (L. Veuleman) 4. Hitting Girls (Luke Edwards) 5. Re: Dojang Cleaning (webmasterJoe@estradatkd.com) 6. size - and gender - a factor (Rain Breaw) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:15:38 -0700 From: John Wallace Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] ITF - juche To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Todd I'm not an ITF member, but I consider myself a student of the art, and of (Major)General Choi's contribution. I believe that the General truly conceived of Tae Kwon Do as transcending national politics. Later in his life he attempted to look past the ROK and the DPRK and see Korea. I think he saw himself as a figure around which to rally a unified country. Keep in mind also that he was born north of the 38th parallel, and as mortality caught up with him, being buried near ancestral ground was probably important to him. Up until very recently, the two Koreas appeared to be moving towards some degree of reconciliation - I think the General believed that in a few years, the dictatorship would crumble, and Korea would find itself where Germany was in 1989, with the more powerful, Westernized South absorbing the North. Time has shown that the Kim dictatorship was playing the South for fools, sucking more capital and aid to prop up their sham State for a few more years. The General became a puppet in that scheme, lending credibility to the DPRK with his Art, and rather than being seen as a unifying force, he was misled and used by those closest to him for short-term political posturing within the ITF. There's probably a Greek tragedy in there somewhere. The assassination attempt that Mr Maldonado referred to by Master Choi (Jung Hwa) should also be seen within the historic context that it occured. We in the US often forget that the ROK was ruled for decades by a military dictatorship that was frequently ruthless with its political opponents; some loyal soldiers from the Korean War - Major General Choi especially. He was driven into exile by that dictatorship. Again, I know I don't have all the facts, but I do believe that Major General Choi's contribution to Tae Kwon Do ranks him with the other Grand Masters, and I hope that the democratic reforms within the ITF lead to a more dignified arena for its adherents. That said - Juche. A ruinous "philosophy", and a definite smudge on an otherwise excellent set of forms. Its truly a pity, because the form itself is wonderfully technical and spectacular when performed by a skilled player. I think its burden is too heavy however - even renamed the ugliness of its association with the Kim Cult will be there. At this point, my dojang is still performing it - but once I get to the rank where its done, I'll speak with my Master about returning Ko Dang to its position. If I'm unsuccessful there - I'll learn the Juche tul, and remember the victims who suffer under that system each time I perform it. John Wallace I Dan, TKD Fremont, CA ------------------------------- I do not have any thing against ITF members but just take a look at the DPRK and what do you see and hear? The track record for DPRK is not very bright and shinning! I know this can be a sore subject but I have to ask Why did Gen, Choi align with the DPRK? Take care Todd Miller Korea Jung Ki Hapkido & Guhapdo ASSC. World Teakwondo Federation (Jido Kwan,Taegu) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 5/19/2003 --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:59:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Raymond Navarro To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #249 -msg 8 Dojang etiquette Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Mr.Dave Weller, be blessed. I bow to you too, even thought you kind of mentioned that this 5th Dan is a couple of stripes more than you. I hav been promoted to 5th Dan after so long of teaching HapKiDo; now it is going to be 27 years for me since I have started teachinh under a 9th Dan, GM Park; Song IL a direct student of DojuNim Ji, Han Jae. I would recomend that when he comes in you ask your group to stand at attention and bow to 5th Dan, (I am from a spanish speaking country so the pronuntiation might be the closest to the inglish pronunsiation for the Korean sound in English)'Chung Don, Charyot, Oh Dan SabomNim-the persons name- Kay KyungNet' this would be : Line up, attention, Look at 5th Dan Teacher Such and such and bow !!! This for respect to that person. You do not know thowgh that your main teacher, the Master of your chool might have asked him to be able to come to his own teacher's school but since he do not come that often that for him not to teach. This might get you in trouble but a good way by that initiative is ok, if you are willing to get chued up, htought nothing might hapen at least you could motivate that 5th Dan and that might have him cme over more often or when he gets there that he might be if all is normal and motivate himself and end up acsepting your offer to teach one day ! Have a good one, HAP ! Ramon Navarro HapKiDo SabomNim Song Moo HapKiDPanama City Panama. >8. Dojang etiquette (Dave Weller) >Message: 8 >Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 10:09:54 -0500 >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From: Dave Weller >Subject: [The_Dojang] Dojang etiquette >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >I am fortunate to be allowed to teach a class once each week for my Master. Fairly often another of the 5th Dans in our school will come to the class I teach. Since he outranks me by a couple of stripes, I always ask if he would like to teach the class. He has always refused. This is fine by me, he wants a workout, and I try to supply that. I am fully aware there is little I have to offer him in the way of instruction, but it is swell having someone in my class who can offer a Master's insight! Here's my question(s); First,how does one acknowledge that a Master is the lead student in the class? Secondly, this gentleman only wears his 5th Dan Belt (his Sunday go to meeting belt) at testings, demonstrations, etc. His normal belt is one I have seen him wear for the last 9 years (and I suspect, a good many years prior to that) a plain unembroidered, black belt, so it is not obvious to the casual observer that he is anything other than "just" a black belt. I,of course, always let the other students know that this person is a 5th Dan but I am wondering if there is any protocol that I should/could observe in this situation? Our school is small and low-key, but we do maintain a fairly formal/traditional class environment. > >thanks in advance for all ya'all's insights. > >Thanks >dave weller _____________________________________________________________ Get a web-based email for life now ---> http://mail.hapkidokr.org _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:09:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "L. Veuleman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Skeeters and ta'maters Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jere, wow, didn't know you were a local, dang the skeeters, right? (mosquito's for you foreigners) Thank you for the kind words in your last post, as well as opinions. I think it has helped alot on this list that I have met alot of you guys, and ya'll realize I am a young martial artist just trying to do things as best I can, and a country boy at that, easy going. I remember only a year ago being written to as if I was some evil pro Japanese guy who snuck onto this list (just the way I felt, maybe It wasn't completly that way, but hey, a guy can be sensitive sometimes right? Plus I have students - smart, accomplished ones - on this list who I felt took some shots as well). In any case, I really feel I have come a long way, not only as a person, but having something more to offer people. I must say my relationships with some members of this list I hold close to me, for we all are learning from one another, right? Anyway, yup Jere, Koreans took the Karate and made it theirs, doing the korean thing. So if you made me a deaf mute, what would I be? I just can't think I would be Shotokan or Japanese Karate, I would still be Chittim Jordan Tae Kwon Do, or Chung Do Kwan. If you have a copy of Son Duk Song's KOREAN KARATE THE ART OF TAE KWON DO look at his pants and top, look a little short? Look at the forms, I run them that way. The only thing I can say we don't do that he promotes is the sparring philosophy. We hit each other. Nathan hits alot. Kent will mess you up for reproduction. I am truly convinced that my fiance' Amanda gains pleasure from such a simple but effective ridgehand thrown just a little bit too hard. But that is just what we have evolved to. Sorta an elitist feeling is to be had by all in our group, we are proud. Joe Dupaquier said it best, Korean by Art, American by Heart. Okay, gimme back my voice and hearing. I say some japanese terms, but now I am hearing my new Korean counterparts here, and learning and changing, so in a way, I can say thank you all for helping me regain my hearing. Probably shouldn't be poking fun at my own hearing disability, but hey, its mine right? My art is still TaeKwonDo, I can't and won't change that. The words just don't hold that much bearing to me. Lets call a ridge hand a 'whoopty doopty bling bling strike', Still uses the same part of the hand, still hurts. Just for arguments sake, what is a Korean Dobak anyway? I would almost go as far as to say you could grab a uniform being worn by a Black Belt today, and look at the tag inside, and find a MADE IN PAKISTAN/CHINA/THAILAND/TAIWAN/ETC label, so what does that mean the uniform should be called. If a dobok is a super lightweight v neck uniform with elastic waistband pants and a slipover top, then I probably won't ever wear one. If a dobok is considered whatever you wear to practice a korean art, regardless of where the article of cloth was produced, than I am sure my Kamikaze Brand uniform isn't that much of a problem, is it? Its the toughest thing I can find that still looks good after 3 years. And another 'arguments sake' thingy, to do Tae Kwon Do do I have to perform the ITF or WTF 'korean' hyung? I really like my pyong an's and pal sek, chul gi, ja on, ship su, etc. I know purely korean bread forms exist, but this is what our head guy was taught in the 50's, so that is what we do now. We don't do it like the shotokan people do it, sure there might be similarities, but so what. Maybe we use a full front stance instead of a more sporty walking stance, it is there for many reasons. Plus it gives me something to piss and moan to my low belts for when they don't do it right. : D And I don't teach Japanese techniques. I don't call any single techique by any ASIAN name in my school, never have, probably never will. Heck, my english is countryfied enough, just consider if I tried to speak a WHOLE BUNCH of korean, it would be very scarry. If you remember back to JR Wests seminar, if you were around when it happened, Master Mac kinda poked a little humor at me and asked me what the japanese word for ridge hand was. I said "ridge hand". It got alot of laughs, and I wasn't trying to be a smart ass, its just I don't know anyother name for it. So if side kicks, punches, ridgehands, hook kicks, etc are japanese, than teach me some korean techniques to show my students. I know how to strike with many parts of my body, surely they are not all japanese parts. I am of Belgian ancestry you know.....maybe I should call them.....nah, nevermind that thought. Leave tomatos out of this discussion please. : ) Mac really is the stuff. You guys should take any chance you get to sponge off of him. I am really glad we are opening much better lines of communication. YITMA Charlie Veuleman JERE WROTE Well Charles, you are off to a good start. But remember you are talking to a native Texan who lived in Texas for 36 years and Louisiana for 4 years (I even go back South a few times a year to remember why I left!). I taught classes in the summer in Houston out of a non air-conditioned warehouse and on the beach wearing a double weave yudo dobok when you were born. So I understand the heat and humidity. But remember, that the Koreans took the Japanese art of karate and it evolved into taekwondo with Korean terms, Korean forms, Korean dobok, etc. long before you were born. It is now a Korean martial art regardless of its history, in fact it now has a Korean history. If you teach Japanese forms, use Japanese terms, wear a Japanese uniform and teach Japanese techniques, then you can spend all day saying a tomato is an orange. Now this is with the assumption that we are talking about the Korean arts. You mentioned your own art. That you have made it yours. So what art is this? If you are talking about taekwondo, let me explain something as it was taught to me 30 years ago. I teach hapkido, and I am not qualified to change it, to make it different, to start a new art. In another 30 years I may have hapkido down. I have seen many people who did not truly learn their art, they were more interested in rank and satisfying their ego, therefore; they were under the misguided assumption that this or that technique was not useful and so they created their own style using what they thought worked best. Magazines are full of these people. Yes, you are going to have preferences, look at Hapkido! Master Han is known for his kicks, Master Myung is known for joint locks, etc. But that is different. But if they both did what we call 'cho keup sam sul' (#3 beginner technique) in hapkido it would look the same. Charles, I think you have come a long way, and are a credit to your students. You are not interested in rank, but knowledge. Keep up the good work. I started out in ohdokwan taekwondo and changed to kukki-taekwondo as a 2nd dan. I hold a 4th dan in taekwondo and know much of its history from being there in the 70's and 80's (I stopped teaching it in the late 90's). As a 5th dan in hapkido I have turned down advancement in rank from those who were not my teacher or if I felt I did not have the required time. You do not have that problem but you are ignoring modern Korean history of your art, in my opinion. I have known Mac for about 15 years and I brought him into the USKMAF (that will be held against me). So please continue seeking advice from him and others. Just my opinion. Jere R. Hilland www.hapkidoselfdefense.com ************** L. Charles Veuleman - http://www.bluewavekarate.com Natchitoches Karate Institute - Chittim Jordan Tae Kwon Do 318-356-7727 Natchitoches Kustom Inks - Quality Screen Printing 318-332-1676 204 Rapides Drive Natchitoches, LA 71457 --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Luke Edwards" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:06:03 +0930 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hitting Girls Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I would appreciate the dojangs opinion along the lines of sparring with females. When I can make it to class we frequently have full contact free sparring. I love Tang Soo Do, and I love applying it in a semi-realistic situation against people of the same build and skill level. However, I have always had the rule in the back of my mind - never hit a girl. To begin with this was interesting as all I did when I started out was block when I sparred females. As I was no good at blocking they found it hilarious kicking me repeatedly in the head. Sure, it tested my endurance but my instructor insisted that female students should be challenged as a rapist or something does not comply to societies rules. For a while I did controlled non contact techniques, but as I grew in the atmosphere of Martial Arts I began to realise that some women have extraodinary martial talent, more so than I could ever compare to. One day I was sparring with one such woman, who's skill was testing my control to the limit. She became irritated that I refused to go full contact with her and she ducked in to do a low punch. Unfortunately, I was also executing a powerful low punch (which was going to be stopped appropriately short of its target) and I hit her full-force in the head. Considering we wear sparring gloves, helmets and mouth guards it was surprising the squishy sound it still made. It didn't stop her severely winding me but her blood lip and bruised cheek still haunt me to this day. Now I only block and do extremely controlled techniques that couldn't possibly make contact. Does anyone have any thoughts on this matter? Tang Soo Luke _________________________________________________________________ Get mobile Hotmail. Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/signup.asp --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 08:03:32 -0400 From: webmasterJoe@estradatkd.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Dojang Cleaning Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey All, I do have one sugestion for this subject. I'm not really sure which cleaning product to use, but make sure it doesn't smell too much. Some students with Asthma or other breathing conditions could find that the smell of the cleaner makes it hard to breathe during class, especially when they're out of breath. I know this happens in my dojang, so we just use a damp (with water) mop after class, and on Saturday we use some very light cleaner (there are no classes on Sunday though, so the dojang gets a chance to air out before classes resume). -Joe Giarratano --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:09:45 -0400 From: Rain Breaw To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] size - and gender - a factor Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have been reading the posts about size being a factor with great interest, and being the opposite - a very small, fragile looking female who is actually much sturdier than looks show - I think that there is another side to the concerns that Landa brings up that is also very important. I am an upper-level green belt, and most of the people in my school who are above green belt are male. Many of them are fairly large and rather strong. I see how they spar with each other, and, though I obviously don't want to get hurt, I always hope that they'll give me the same opportunity to be challenged. Sparring in class is always fairly controlled, even when it is aggressive, and even the harder kicks are rather careful. This is good, and so I'm not too afraid of being challenged by harder kicks. Unfortunately, with the exception of the Master (who seems to recognize my frustration), ALL of my sparring partners lighten up as soon as I enter the ring. They take on a more instructional tone, and their kicks or punches rarely come within three inches of my body (even though I know some of the kicks or punches could have won the match for them). While I'm about as non-aggressive as one can get, and I usually kick very lightly no matter who my partner is - I will occasionally put more power into kicks to the upper arm or torso just to try to get them to challenge me a little more. The response is generally something to the effect of "good girl" (if I were an aggressive person, that wording would be a huge mistake on their part). Then they go back to acting instructional. These are green and red belts, with an occasional black belt. In most cases, I know that they are better than me and I wouldn't win the match on my own - in some cases, I know that I could possibly win the match on my own and would like the opportunity to try. This has not only been a frustration in my training, but has also proven to have an impact for me in tournaments. Even though I'm always training with upper-level large males, when I get into the ring at tournaments with smaller green-belt females, I am always surprised by the force and aggressiveness that I meet, and I have now been actually hurt in two of the three tournaments I've attended. In both cases, I was hurt because I was not ready for the amount of power coming behind a technique I was going to counter. Obviously I would be very happy for any advice, but I'm also hoping that this opposite experience can help in some way to inform Landa's (and other larger people's) experience. Hopefully there is some sort of middle ground in which the small people and the large people can meet, and both get equal benefit without unnecessary harm. I think that my experience is equally governed by gender and size (small males in my school have great sparring matches, which look like a lot of fun), while it seems that many of the other posts show that Landa's experience is largely influenced by size. However, both seem to be a real factor in how an exchange between partners take place. Tang Soo, Rain --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustugold@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest