Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 16:23:02 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #262 - 16 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. (no subject) (Lucy Westcott) 2. Thank you Re: left from Right (gerrald) 3. RE:Headgear (Michael Rowe) 4. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Uniform_Stuff_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 5. Re: Koreans and point sparring (ISA Headquarters) 6. Dan trim and uniforms (Ray Terry) 7. Uniform Stuff (Ray Terry) 8. Rent prices and Caveman tournaments (Rudy Timmerman) 9. Friends Don't Let Friends Point Spar...says Ray (L. Veuleman) 10. George Peters on MDK dan trim (d.mchenry@juno.com) 11. Re: Dan trim and midnight blue belts (Denise Lee) 12. Re: Rent prices and Caveman tournaments (Ray Terry) 13. Re: Friends Don't Let Friends Point Spar...says Ray (Ray Terry) 14. Add to: Belts & Uniforms (Manuel Maldonado) 15. ko dan ja dee (Charles Richards) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Lucy Westcott" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 15:36:17 +1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net JW "...Are you near Port Macquarie?  I have family friends there, and remember my holiday trips to their house with fondness..." I live nowhere near Port Macquarie, something like 10 hours drive north, from there. Lucy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get mobile Hotmail. Click here --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "gerrald" To: Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 02:04:40 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Thank you Re: left from Right Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you to all that sent in a reply to my Question a few days ago. They were all helpful to me. Also just a note that I achieved the level of 2nd gup in WTF TKD. Thanks for all the help. Gerrald --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 07:22:16 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:Headgear Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Yes we do. You are right in that it doesn't help much for getting kicked in the head but it does help those new students as they learn to keep balance while kicking and being kicked. Keeps the incidents of concussion from increasing when they fall. You mention deaths from full contact TKD. However, lets look at the rate of concussion from the sport. Headgear has helped reduce this rate, especially in the lower ranks. Michael Rowe --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 07:00:46 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Uniform_Stuff_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear George and Charles: "......I have always been taught that this is traditional. On the warrior-scholar.com site there is a very nice photo of a very old Do Bahk. I have also seen this on a Korean website when I was researching korean traditional clothing. Also on the warrior-scholar.com site there is a photo of a painting of an ancient warrior at lesiure. Both of these clearly show the dark blue trim which has been shown to be one of the markings of what might be refered to as the equivilant of the Samuri class in ancient Korea....." To the best of my knowledge that never was the eqivalent of the Samurai class in Korea and just like there has never been a single uniform sword architecture, there has never been a uniform code of dress. Its not as though people have not tried to establish a single standard, but once again we would bump into that age-old bugaboo about who would be recognized as having the authority to dictate to everyone else. The result is that the WKSWA wears a uniform supposedly patterned after the uniform of korean generals of a by-gone era. Many TKD/TSD still the dobok patterned after the Japanese Gi--- with or without various colors and trims. GM Myung (WHF) has, in the last few years elected to provide to his membership uniforms patterned after the common foot soldier of the Yi dynasty, while other more modern-thinking practitioners have gotten into wearing the elastic waistbands and pull-over tops of the more Olympic styles. Personally I would rather see everyone adopt the hanbok/dobok worn by Taek Kyon stylists. I understand that common practice was for students of old to wear their hanbok to school and shed the top for practice. When practice was over they put the top back on and went home. Here in the states I am thinking that one could either leave the top on or wear a cotton T underneath. But, until a standard like this gets going, I continue to wear a plain Black dobok after the pattern of the Japanese uniform. BTW: I noticed that GM Ji wears a plain grey hanbok when he practices. Does anyone know if these are made to order for him and his folks or are they available from some regular distributor? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "ISA Headquarters" To: Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 09:13:48 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Koreans and point sparring Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray wrote: (snip) Also never really saw a Korean actively support a Karate/point tourny back then. Only non-stop sparring as done in Korea. (I personally never saw the point [pun intended] of those point-style games of tag.)(unsnip) The tournaments I attended in Oklahoma and Texas back in the 70's & early 80's, were definitely supported and attended in force by the Koreans-at-large. Examples being Jack Hwang, Jong Bo Kim, Dragon Kim, and others. These were the same tournaments that the likes of Mickey Fisher, Ray McCallum, Demitris Havanis, Roy Kurban, Allen Steen and others attended. I remember when the first foam stuff came out, and it was duct taped within a month or so. My students at that time bought me a set of the first hand and foot gear that Century made. Now that was some shabby stuff. Brown in color but you could grab with it. That was when Mike Dillard was still in his garage pumping this stuff out. George Petrotta http://4dw.net/sungjado/ --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 06:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Dan trim and uniforms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I could not help but notice your reference to the trim on the Sang EE. > I have always been taught that this is traditional. On the > warrior-scholar.com site there is a very nice photo of a very old Do Bahk. > I have also seen this on a Korean website when I was researching korean > traditional clothing. Also on the warrior-scholar.com site there is a photo > of a painting of an ancient warrior at lesiure. Both of these clearly show > the dark blue trim which has been shown to be one of the markings of what > might be refered to as the equivilant of the Samuri class in ancient Korea. > In the federation I belong to, the trim on the Dan Do-Bahk and the Dee > are an outward sign of an inward journey. Why would I wish to confuse my > juniors so that they would not know who they can turn to for help or why > would I not display my rank so that my senior can give me guidance and > instruction? It would seem that in this discussion some have forgotten that > the "Martial" in Martial Arts means military. Do senior officers wear the > insignia of their juniors? Do non-coms display the rank of private? I have > been taught that Martial discipline and protocol are always to be adhered > to. As I recall, in the War Memorial in Seoul there are some displays of a few old military uniforms of the higher rank. Some of them have trim, in red I believe. Probably other colors, too. No rank insignia that I can recall. I can't picture them in my mind right now, but they are probably trimmed hanboks, not doboks. The dobok style uniform probably is just an outgrowth of the Japanese gi. Few people outside of the militaristic and nationalistic Japan of the late 1800s and early 1900s worried much about what type/style of clothing they wore when training. Re: midnight blue, I thought the use of midnight blue by Hwang Kee was more based on the tradition that black also meant death. Since the black belt concept came by way of Japan, using a midnight blue belt was one way to attempt to be different from the much hated Japanese (in Korea and elsewhere around Asia circa WWII). Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 06:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Uniform Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > .... BTW: I > noticed that GM Ji wears a plain grey hanbok when he practices. Does anyone > know if these are made to order for him and his folks or are they available > from some regular distributor? Those are the new(er) style Sin Moo HKD dobok that GM Ji came up with. Just don't get the first 'print run'. Polyester, and very hot... Prior to this hanbok uniform he just wore (& sold) a plain white (top & bottom) dobok uniform. The material used wasn't all that strong or heavy, unlike your average judo or jujutsu uniform. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 11:36:39 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Rent prices and Caveman tournaments Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael writes: > Does anyone remember how > back in the 60's and early 70's all the marial arts schools were on > the most > dangerous sides of town? I think it maybe had to do with low rent > prices? Hello Michael: Thanks for the memory. My first school was in just such a place, and perhaps the $10.00 per month fee did have something to do with it. In addition, if someone could not come up with the ten bucks, I let them train anyways. Never was able to lose that bad habit:) Another factor was that Landlords often would not rent to martial artists. Caveman days. Hello Bruce: I guess it sounds brutal and caveman like; however, tournaments really were fun, even with contact being the rule rather than the exception. Serious injuries were not often encountered, because everyone knew how to block. To be sure, we had to follow the rules, but most competitors would tell the judge they bit their lip if it was bleeding from a punch or kick. No one wanted to win by DQ. Later, when drawing blood became an automatic disqualification issue, we initiated some rules to keep folks from winning by getting their butt kicked. In my Can Am, I still have the old rule where BOTH competitors get tossed when drawing blood... one for causing the injury, and the other for not blocking. Back then most tournaments were hosted by Japanese schools, and Korean martial artists would not likely get a point for kicking. Most points were scored with a reverse punch or a good backfist, and Korean style martial artists often had to make harder contact with their kicks to get anyone to notice a point was scored. Later, when the likes of Skipper Mullins hit the scene, it became harder to deny a point for a good kick. I have been in competitions where we would begin at 10:00 am and not be done with sparring until midnight. After some of these marathon events, I had to let someone else drive, because next day my hands would be too sore to grab the steering wheel and my feet were too swollen to get into my shoes. Yet, no one I know ever complained for being hit. To do so meant admitting that you could not block or dodge. In one of my fights, where Robert Trias was the center judge, and Phil Koeple and Jim Harrison were corner judges, I told the judge I had missed my opponents with the reverse punch they had awarded me. Trias asked me if I had come to judge or to fight, and he stuck with his decision. After winning the fight because of that errant point awarded to me, my opponent came over to tell me no hard feelings (and he meant it). Today, this would cause a major incident, back then we simply looked forward to evening the score at the next event. BTW, in more than thirty-five years of hosting my annual tournaments, I have yet to have a serious injury at these events. Frankly, I see more injuries in some of the non contact events we attend. IMHO, it is good judging that prevent injuries, and that is why I am very particular about the judges in my tournaments. In fact, I always have a free judging clinic the night before the event. Judges either follow my rules to the letter, or they don't judge. I take my responsibility for the safety of competitors very serious. Anyway, thanks for allowing me to reminisce. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 09:28:24 -0700 (PDT) From: "L. Veuleman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Friends Don't Let Friends Point Spar...says Ray Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray, You really dislike point sparrin' that much? I must say I like our Continuous Sparring event or even our Full Contact event for the faster harded action, but it seems all the glory is in point matches. That is where many people have made a name for themselves, didn't like Joe Lewis and Superfoot get their fame there? But that was back when the fighting was probably a bit more interesting with that whole lack of padding thing we have been talkin bout. YITMA Charlie Veuleman ************** L. Charles Veuleman - http://www.bluewavekarate.com Natchitoches Karate Institute - Chittim Jordan Tae Kwon Do 318-356-7727 Natchitoches Kustom Inks - Quality Screen Printing 318-332-1676 204 Rapides Drive Natchitoches, LA 71457 --__--__-- Message: 10 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 11:38:42 -0500 From: d.mchenry@juno.com Subject: [The_Dojang] George Peters on MDK dan trim Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net George, <> Originally, the uniforms used were like those of the Japanese, all white no trim. Then at a later date, Hwang Kee saw that old uniform in a museum and decided to put the black trim (I believe) on the uniforms, later changing it to indigo or midnight blue. Since the MooDukKwan was the first Kwan to use the trimmed dobak, it became known as MDK trim. I assume to be different and distinguish themselves, the ITF trimmed the bottom of the top (not the full lapel) and the WTF uses a trimmed V neck uniform. << In the federation I belong to, the trim on the Dan Do-Bahk and the Dee are an outward sign of an inward journey. Why would I wish to confuse my juniors so that they would not know who they can turn to for help or why would I not display my rank so that my senior can give me guidance and instruction? It would seem that in this discussion some have forgotten that the "Martial" in Martial Arts means military.... I have been taught that Martial discipline and protocol are always to be adhered to.>> Look at some of the old pictures of the MDK, no one was wearing any trim. There's even a photo of Hwang Kee giving a demonstration in Oct. 1949 (or July, depending which book you're looking at) where he not only has no trim, but it looks like he is wearing a white belt. I hope he wasn't confusing his juniors and the spectators... But if what I read recently is correct, this is all wrong - it was all illegally taken from Dr. Hackworth's HapKiDo uniform and we are all just trying to confuse potential students... ;-) At least this is my understanding. Mac TangSoo! --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Denise Lee" To: Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 13:11:13 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Dan trim and midnight blue belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Re: midnight blue, I thought the use of midnight blue by Hwang Kee was > more based on the tradition that black also meant death. Since the black > belt concept came by way of Japan, using a midnight blue belt was one way to > attempt to be different from the much hated Japanese (in Korea and elsewhere > around Asia circa WWII). Ray Terry The above could be part of the whole truth, but here's a few of the reasons that have consistently been given for the use of midnight blue in my experience: } Blue is the color that represents scholarship. In Hwang Kee's view, a martial artist should be a scholar. }Midnight blue is the color of the night sky which (we used to believe, but now know otherwise) is eternal, like our learning. No end in sight. (Black is final.) The urban legend(?) extension of this perspective is that in the Hwang Kee's MDK view, one does not earn a black belt until death, when learning in the physical realm is finished. (I do know of a well-respected instructor who made such a black belt presentation at the funeral of a student -- a much respected and appreciated act.) }An extension of the above is that the wearer should always be always mindful of his/her imperfection and need to continue to pursue more knowledge, understanding and skill. Thus, encouraging and reinforcing a humble attitude. }Blue represents the uhm (maturity, calm, passive, harvest). The addition of the red stripe, the yang (ripening, head, active) at the 4th Dan level signifies a balance between the uhm and yang in the wearer. As to the trimmed uniforms, reference has always been made to "the (clothing) worn by male martial artist personnel during the Ko Ku Ryo Dynasty." (photo on page 236 of Hwang Kee's Volume 2 textbook). Other, similar illustrations show up in some writings, one of which is on page 4 of Hwang Kee's Volume 1 textbook, the caption is: "illustration of Hwa Rang." Hwang Kee's perspective has consistently been nationalistic. Whether this is anti-Japanese or pro-Korean or some mix of the two is not for me to decide. But, in my own experience of studying it, the philosophy of his art has always been expressed in the positive. Leads me to believe that he just did what he did because it was right for him, not to stop anything else. Charles- This doesn't really answer your question about possibly confusing students, but I hope it helps explain some of my own perspective on the Kodanja Dee and trimmed top? (more on that later . . . not wanting this to be as long-winded as I usually am:-) Yours in Tang Soo Do- Denise --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Rent prices and Caveman tournaments To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 10:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Back then most tournaments were hosted by Japanese schools, and Korean > martial artists would not likely get a point for kicking. Most points > were scored with a reverse punch or a good backfist, and Korean style > martial artists often had to make harder contact with their kicks to > get anyone to notice a point was scored. Later, when the likes of > Skipper Mullins hit the scene, it became harder to deny a point for a > good kick. Reminds me of the first tourny I saw. A shotokan tourny with only one Korean style entrant. The Korean stylist did a sliding in side kick that put the shotokan guy flat on his back. After a bit of shock and dismay on the faces of the Japanese judges he was awarded a half-point. The judge then had a short, but highly animated chat with the shotokan fellow. The match restarted, he jumped in with a well-focused (i.e. no contact) reverse punch. Ippon! Match over. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Friends Don't Let Friends Point Spar...says Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 10:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > You really dislike point sparrin' that much? I must say I like our Continuous Sparring event or even our Full Contact event for the faster harded action, but it seems all the glory is in point matches. That is where many people have made a name for themselves, didn't like Joe Lewis and Superfoot get their fame there? But that was back when the fighting was probably a bit more interesting with that whole lack of padding thing we have been talkin bout. > Many years ago that was all there was on the national circuit. Thus that was what everybody did. Then the PKA got big, and so did Bill and Joe. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Manuel Maldonado" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 13:07:57 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Add to: Belts & Uniforms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I feel as maybe many of you do. Once one is a Black Belt one should be able to wear whatever one wants. I do feel though that maybe we as Tae Kwondoist could maybe incorporate like a belt system for black belts. Me for example I'll wear a Black and Red Blocked Belt just because I feel that it might inspire some young future student joins (marketing tool) I have though thought and toyed with the thought. As far as I know the Japanese arts do this. But it's just a thought. I meet a high ranking dan in Korea when I was stationed over there. He wore a Red White & Blue Belt I thought it was awesome. So I asked him what it ment. He replied "when you are as high ranking dan as me, then you can too wear whatever you want and no one will say anything to you." So I do even though I'm not as high ranking dan as he was or possibly is. Thank you for letting me add my small contribution. Mr. Manuel K. Maldonado Ho Do Kwan Tae Kwon-Do http://devoted.to/taekwondo _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 14:32:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] ko dan ja dee Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In the federation I belong to, the trim on the Dan Do-Bahk and the Dee are an outward sign of an inward journey. Why would I wish to confuse my juniors so that they would not know who they can turn to for help or why would I not display my rank so that my senior can give me guidance and instruction? It would seem that in this discussion some have forgotten that the "Martial" in Martial Arts means military. Do senior officers wear the insignia of their juniors? Do non-coms display the rank of private? I have been taught that Martial discipline and protocol are always to be adhered to. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear George, Thank you. I think your thoughts have helped me think through my approach to the Ko dan Ja Dee issue. Actually after the sniper execution of many officers and NCO's, daily and combat uniforms are now subdued rank insignia. Everyone in the company knows who the CO is. So I'll keep my subdued belt that still represents (Neh Kong Weh Yu) for all events at my school and competitions. For anything that would warrant dress blues I will adorn my self with the central red stripe once I pass my 5th dan exam. In my organization that is when our GM begins to refer to you as Master, us 4th Dans are master instructors. You and others bring out good examples of dress blues like, teaching at another TSD school as a guest, or sitting on a testing panel as a guest master. It would be confusing to other TSD gups if my students refered to me as Master Richards, but I was not wearing the traditional regallia of a TSD master. The trim is another issue. I have seen the pictures of "ancient" warriors in the trimed tops, and understand that the Royal Blue trim was worn by palace guards in Korea. If this is true, and that is the reason to wear it, then it makes sense to me that only koong joong mu sool based martial arts like HwaRangDo, KukSul, etc. should wear the "royal palace trim." Those of us that follow sado mu sul based arts like Tang Soo Do might be better served to dress like Korean villagers if tradition is the reason to pick a particular uniform style. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustugold@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest