Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:45:02 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #264 - 17 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. INTERESTING SCENARIO.. (Michael Shawn) 2. Haidong Gumdo Homepage is now online (English) (A. Boyd) 3. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Uniform_Question_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 4. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Uniform_Info?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 5. Re: tapping/points (Michael Whalen) 6. Old school & point sparring (Burdick, Dakin R) 7. helmets and point fighting (Burdick, Dakin R) 8. Re: Old school & point sparring (Ray Terry) 9. contract cancellation (Burdick, Dakin R) 10. Agree with Bruce (Charles Richards) 11. special belt (Charles Richards) 12. Bill and Joe (Ray Terry) 13. Melindas tournament problems (L. Veuleman) 14. Re: Grandmasters' belt (Denise Lee) 15. (no subject) (kis2) 16. Re: (no subject) (Ray Terry) 17. And TKD stylists wonder... (Stovall, Craig) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Michael Shawn" To: Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 01:04:47 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] INTERESTING SCENARIO.. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I teach adults Combat Taekwondo at our school (hand strikes and low kicking, sweeps, locks, all the stuff that has been weeded out for sport use), I have run into a situation that I hope you may have an answer to. A couple of my students who are in there late 40's train hard and are getting close to taking their black belt test. They have chronic knee problems and their doctors have said no more TKD. These two students complain most about there knees when doing lots of the endurance kicking/footwork drills as well as warm up drills. They still want to train at a level that they can help with weight loss as well as keeping sharp on their self defense skills. I am trying to put together a curriculum that will allow students like this to continue their training without putting to much stress on their knees and to keep them in the same intense workout level that they are a custom to. Any Suggestions?? Thanks Michael --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 04:37:58 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Haidong Gumdo Homepage is now online (English) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The English section of the World Haidong Gumdo Federation is now online. The site has the normal promotional information as well as a section for announcements, lists of international governing bodies (scanty info right now), message boards, and multi-media content. The url is www.hdgd.org The link for English is quite small and can be found in the upper right-hand corner. ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 07:54:43 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Uniform_Question_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Melinda: ".....so where does the ATA's GM Lee uniform (pick one: gold, black, white...all with fancy, glittery and flashy trim, stripes, etc) come from?....." I ask Rays' pardon for just a moment. Since you run a MA supply service, have you found resources that offer MA uniform away from most of the typical configurations? By this I mean, and going back to my earlier comment about GM Jis' hanbok/dobok, have you identified folks who could provide a kind of "working hanbok" that would tolerate regular, vigorous exercise? As kind of a guide let me say that the magazine INSIDE KUNG-FU (Pacific Rim Publ) offers a "monks' uniform" which may, or may not, be intended for use when working out. Thoughts? Comments? BTW: I wasn't intending this to become a commercial discussion, Ray, as much as I am hoping to hear for Melinda on what she has found available through her connections. Thanks. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 08:05:19 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Uniform_Info?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jack: "....I think big bear brand or Sang Moo Sa makes them but im not sure. GM Ji's website has a good price for them. They are well made ,comfortable and sturdy dobuk for hard training....." Thanks for the resource. Does it follow that these uniforms are intended more for the Sin Moo Hapkido people or is this an attempt to develop an alternative to the more generally accepted uniform of Japanese derivation? BTW: As long as we are talking uniforms does anyone know the origin of the various jackets with diamond-patterned stitching of alternate color? I think the most common I have seen are black pants/jacket with contrasting white pattern stitching. Also-- Do folks have any thoughts on the weight of these particular jacket materials? I have seen very light (polyester?) and also heavier (canvas?) jackets, both with the diamond pattern. Comments? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Michael Whalen" To: "dojang digest" Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 08:51:43 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: tapping/points Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >i've seen points awarded for tapping, not punching. if i tap you on the head, that's not a point> I don't think it's a point if your arm is fully extended when you "tap". However If you "tap" and your arm is slightly bent then there is room to follow through which would result in a punch/point. At our tourney's only light contact is allowed and an attentive judge will see if the "tap" was just that or had the potential to become a punch. My .02 respectfully, michael whalen KSWnut --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 08:52:33 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Old school & point sparring Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray wrote: Going back to the 70s and 80s the newer TKD instructors from Korea (the 25/30-something year olds) would NOT NEVER NADA use the term Karate, e.g. Korean Karate. The older, established Korean instructors would and did use that term frequently. Usually Korean Karate or Karate in large letters with Tae Kwon Do in smaller letters under it. Me: Yep. The younger Korean instructors really came from a different world. They had served in the military, served in active duty or even in clandestine missions (like Haeng Ung Lee, founder of the ATA), and either lived through the Japanese occupation or were brought up in a post-war Korea where one had to be tough to survive. In a similar vein, I remember talking to a buddy whose dad was 8th dan in three arts, and he mentioned his dad was a ROK soldier. I asked him if he knew what ROK meant, and he said no. Raised in the US, he thought it was ROCK soldier! His dad didn't talk about his days in the military, and he didn't ask. At the time, my friend had been training about 16 years in the arts (since age of 4). Ray wrote: Also never really saw a Korean actively support a Karate/point tourny back then. Only non-stop sparring as done in Korea. (I personally never saw the point [pun intended] of those point-style games of tag.) Me: I know we've had this conversation before, so I'll just respectfully disagree. Point sparring is good for control and distance and can be practiced by a wide variety of ages and sizes. WTF sparring wears you out and tears you up. Nowadays I do hapkido freeplay, but only with people I really trust. But if I was teaching tkd sparring, it would be point. For what it's worth.... Dakin Burdick dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 09:02:14 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] helmets and point fighting Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I wrote: <> Michael Rowe wrote: Yes we do. You are right in that it doesn't help much for getting kicked in the head but it does help those new students as they learn to keep balance while kicking and being kicked. Keeps the incidents of concussion from increasing when they fall. Me: You're right Michael. Helmets help with something and safety is always good. My post was mostly a reaction against people who think that more padding means one can hit harder. Ray wrote re: point fighting: Many years ago that was all there was on the national circuit. Thus that was what everybody did. Then the PKA got big, and so did Bill and Joe. Me: Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis were big before the PKA. They were both top competitors in the late 1960s and early 1970s, long before the PKA. In fact, Joe Lewis was one of the primary movers in establishing a full-contact tournament, because it was better for his aggressive and muscular style. And Bill's kicking is much more useful in point fighting than in full-contact. Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Old school & point sparring To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 07:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Ray wrote: > > Also never really saw a Korean actively support a Karate/point tourny > back then. Only non-stop sparring as done in Korea. (I personally > never saw the point [pun intended] of those point-style games of tag.) > > Me: > > I know we've had this conversation before, so I'll just respectfully > disagree. Point sparring is good for control and distance and can be > practiced by a wide variety of ages and sizes. WTF sparring wears you > out and tears you up. Nowadays I do hapkido freeplay, but only with > people I really trust. But if I was teaching tkd sparring, it would be > point. Understood. I've done both. Started out in point since I started out in TSD. But after moving to TKD, continuous sparring was the only option available. I think it depends on what you want out of your tourny experience. Both are sport and play, but imo continuous sparring is far closer to real life than is point. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 09:26:15 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] contract cancellation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > i want to change schools, but unfortunately i'm in the middle of a contract and i cant just leave... I seem to recall that the US has a law about fitness center contracts that said that one could not be held to the whole contract. Isn't there a buy-out option on this contract? Anyone else remember this law (or judgement)? And actually remember the name? Thanks, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 07:50:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Agree with Bruce Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I don't know anyone who wears rank on their belts past the 4th Dan (Instructors) level. I suspect there are probably folks out there who do but actually, after 4th dan the point is truely mute. What I have seen is that most folks who are 6-9th dan usually wear a simple Black Belt-- occasionally double-wide--- and their technique and affiliation, organizationally, speak for them. In my case I still wear my first three dan strips and will probably wear my fourth dan stripes should I ever earn them. After that, should I need to have to wear stripes to advise people of my standing in Hapkido maybe I better seek out an alternate activity, yes? ------------------------------------------------------------- It's a scary Monday morning because I'm agreeing with Bruce :-) Like you Bruce I wore my first three stripes with pride because they were the correct regallia for my NGB AND more importantly my instructor personally adorned me with them. At the Master level in TSD (4th dan) and independent, I kinda took the opinion that it became my decision and that stripes had no meaning if I can't perform and conduct myself like a 4th Dan. FWIW, I believe the (some) TKD folks just keep putting on stripes. If you have coach Han Lee's excellent olympic sparring tapes he is sporting about 5 stripes. I have seen GM Hodder's old belt with 7 stripes on rare occaisions. I would guess as an 8th dan now and with 38 years of continuous training he could wear anything he wanted and everyone in the USKMAF and most of Colorado would not be confused about his rank and comensurate skill. Going back to Bruce's point I believe traditional TSD (since about the 50's) uses the central red stripe belt for 4th through 9th dan. I believe that's the Belt Kim, Jae Jhoon, Lee, Kang Uk and Kim, Tang Moon wear. I'm curious if Hwang, H.C. uses anything different since his father promoted him to 10th dan. I remember the WTSDA uses two red stripes for 6th and 7th dan, and the red/white block for 8th (GM Shin is currently 8th). WTSDA also shows the Red/Black block belt as 9th Dan, but doesn't have any 9th dans. Dear George, I wanted to go on record as saying I have nothing but respect for GM Hwang Kee and all of the TSD community and I hope my rather strong and independent views have not offended you. I think Master Mac and Master Lee know me a little better and understand that as opinionated and open to modern science as I am, my heart is deep rooted in Tang Soo Do. Train with Jung Do in your heart The rest is commentary, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 07:59:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] special belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net There were others in the class who looked sloppy and got promoted and i feel i wasted my money...I really have lost respect for my master and i want to change schools, but unfortunately i'm in the middle of a contract and i cant just leave... ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Hasan, IMHO a contract is an agreement between TWO parties. I would agree this demoralizing belt warrants a closed door, both people calm, respectful conversation with your master. In this particular case, while still being respectful as a student, put the thought in the front of your mind that you are his client (contract) and give him your views about whether or not this belt and experience provided you with the customer service you signed up for. Now for me (especially at gup levels) I believe in setting my students up for success (in incremental steps). The existance of this "special" belt tells me that your master still believes in the "rule by making an example of someone" theory. I am sorry that this person had to be you, and hope that it doesn't discourage you from continuing martial arts training. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 07:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Bill and Joe Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Ray wrote re: point fighting: > > Many years ago that was all there was on the national circuit. Thus > that was what everybody did. Then the PKA got big, and so did Bill and > Joe. > > Me: > > Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis were big before the PKA. ... But not to the general sporting public. The PKA matches (or perhaps another similar org) were probably the first to receive (US) national sports TV coverage. I believe that was when Joe and Bill first become widely known, known to many instead of just a few 'kroty' guys. Of course their -unique- personalities went well with TV coverage. :) I still have many of Bill's full-contact fights on videotape. With one amazing leg/foot he dominated opponents and knocked out many (most?) of them. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 08:28:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "L. Veuleman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Melindas tournament problems Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Melinda, I hear what you are saying about the amount of contact, or lack thereof, and that will most probably always be an issue. I think the my tournament organization has the funniest ideas on contact. All your KYU/GUP career you learn control and light contact, then when you get to black belt, if you arn't making thumps and slamming your opponent, you don't get the points called. But, as a black belt, I like and appreciate the chance to make solid contact with these guys, and the feeling is mutual. Then we go get pizza or crawfish. But anyway, back to the original post...Parents will never understand the referee's in any organization, remember, they are highly biased towards their children, that is perfectly normal. It kinda saddens me, because I know alot of kids get their ride home spoiled by mom or dad complaining about how they were robbed or how that judge was blind. Then we as black belts get to see that kid the next time, but with a little less respect coming from them or thier parents. This all comes with the territory. For once I would love to see a Dad say, Son, you took that whuppin pretty good, you can just work on that next class. But, we move on, we go to the next tournament. I can honestly say the black belt I was in 1999 and the black belt I am four years later is a drastic improvement, and I owe at least 50 percent of it to tournament competition. I stand by how I think competition improves students, especially ones you have had for a while. Just me ranting.... Charlie Veuleman ************** L. Charles Veuleman - http://www.bluewavekarate.com Natchitoches Karate Institute - Chittim Jordan Tae Kwon Do 318-356-7727 Natchitoches Kustom Inks - Quality Screen Printing 318-332-1676 204 Rapides Drive Natchitoches, LA 71457 --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Denise Lee" To: Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 11:46:51 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Grandmasters' belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I'm curious if Hwang, H.C. uses anything different since his > father promoted him to 10th dan. Master Richards- Grandmaster Hwang Kee wore the midnight blue belt with one red stripe when overseeing the class at the 50th Anniversary of the MDK in Seoul in 1995. To my knowledge, Grandmaster H.C. Hwang still wears the same belt. > I think Master Mac and Master > Lee know me a little better and understand that as opinionated and > open to modern science as I am, my heart is deep rooted in Tang Soo Do. >From my perspective, the salient point is: > Train with Jung Do in your heart > The rest is commentary, Just please keep on inspiring FREEDOM. To choose. Wisely. Take care- Denise --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "kis2" To: Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 11:42:39 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net hey everyone! im a member of a form of korean martial arts called Pil Sung Do. 'Certain Victory'. I was wondering if anyone else had heard of it, i cant find a history on it over the internet. If anyone has heard of it and knows some history, please email me at kis2@hotmail.com . Thank you for your help, and continue your training. kis2 --__--__-- Message: 16 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] (no subject) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >hey everyone! im a member of a form of korean martial arts called Pil Sung Do. >'Certain Victory'. I was wondering if anyone else had heard of it, i cant find >a history on it over the internet. "Pil Sung" is a common Korean phrase heard in TKD dojangs around the world. But never heard of a Pil Sung Do. It is probably the name your instructor has decided to call his/her individual style of martial arts. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 17 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 13:11:57 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] And TKD stylists wonder... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ...why our art has almost ZERO respect nowadays in the larger martial arts community. For your reading enjoyment, I give you 3 & 5 year old black belts. http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=54704 I think I just saw the last shred of credibility go flying away in the wind. For all my TKD brothers and sisters out there who are still practicing the art with a little dignity and respect...you have my condolences. You are a rapidly dying minority. Stovall's Law of Martial Arts #87: What is a black belt...it's what YOU make of it. I think there are people out there who are trying to see what LITTLE they can make of it. Craig "Just promoted his hamster to green belt" Stovall CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustugold@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest