Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 16:07:02 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #274 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_All_dresed_up?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 2. humility (rich hodder) 3. Drop Ins (Charles Richards) 4. Studio Regulation (Charles Richards) 5. reading the mail (Ray Terry) 6. Re: On second thought (jmchie@wideopenwest.com) 7. RE: Jumping Over Kids (Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy) 8. Jumping over kids (Helstrom, Carl) 9. Stripes on black belts (Wicker, H. Keith) 10. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Jumping_Over_Kids?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 11. Safety (Charles Richards) 12. RE: Govt Regulation. (Michael Rowe) 13. Re: Re: On second thought (Ray Terry) 14. belts (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 15. regulation (Patrick L) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 08:47:45 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_All_dresed_up?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Michael: ".....I think everyone needs to remember a uniform is only clothing. Nothing traditional about it. The Dobok or Dogi are really recent inventions. By tradition the uniform was often the undergarments. So by that tradition many men should be wearing boxers, briefs, or Boxer Briefs. Others wore what was common clothing for the times. In some systems it was the tradition to wear the uniform of the warrior (Samurai and Hwarang)....." I agree with you on a utilitarian level. You're right. What does it matter HOW we dress when we train? From a utilitarian level I can be in my skivies or bib overalls. Thats true. However, for some of us, the idea of practicing KMA includes addressing the Korean culture in its turn. I'm not saying everyone HAS to use a han-bok for training, but I think it should be considered. I am not saying everyone HAS to use the MYTBTJ as the sole source for their training material, but I think it should be given serious consideration. I'm not saying everyone should abandon Japanese-influenced tradition, but I think we should take a deeper look at the Chinese contributions. When it comes to uniform, I personally would like to see teachers wear 12oz black canvas han-bok, and students wear 12 oz white canvas. No belts-- no patches--- no pins. You want rank? Given them a cert they can keep at home. The Ken-jutsu/Kendo/Aikido people have a characteristic uniform (hakama) and the Judo/Karate people have theirs (do- ji). The TKD/TSD people have a gi-like uniform and the sport folks have that kinda pull-over top (whatever its called). I think it wouldn't be such a bad thing if traditionalist KMA people--- or should I say people who aspire to this, had a basic dress. In reading an article about Dr. Kimm in BLACK BELT magazine some months back he had pictures of folks who members of a relatively obscure albeit elite band of very accomplished MA. I seem to remember that there wasn't a flashy uniform in the bunch. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "rich hodder" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:40:32 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] humility Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Morgan, As you progress along the path of the Martial Arts, you find that you have ample opportunity to find yourself in embarrassing situations. How you handle them is what makes you a better person and that, after all the hoopla, is our goal. You handled your situation with a display of Indomitable Spirit and just the right amount of panache. You are to be commended for displaying in real life that which you teach in the Dojang. You asked if other instructors have had similar experiences, I would venture to guess that most, if not all, have. The instructors that are still teaching are the ones that handled those miss-steps as adventures in learning. It is always good to sit back and laugh at yourself once in awhile, unfortunately, there are those among us that really believe they are on the pedestal that students seem to put us on. Falling off now and then shows them that you are human too, and helps them to understand that, they too can reach a higher rank. Keep up the good work, I know your students appreciate it. Have fun, RichGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 07:59:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Drop Ins Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ok, heres what I'm dealing with: I have students from other area MA schools coming in to our classes on a fairly regular basis. Some are blackbelts. At first I liked it and welcomed them and didn't ask anything of them. Now I'm beginning to resent that they are taking advantage of our hospitality. I don't really want to turn them out, but I also don't think its fair to me and the students who support our club. Anyone run into this type of situation?.......Dave ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Dave, My first two (sometime more) classes are complementary and open to anyone over the age of 6 who is willing to take off their shoes. On my enrollment form I take down the name, birthdate and phone number. Nothing to sign, and no address. If they decide to enroll we fill in the rest of the form and sign it. At the end of the second class we do have an enrollment conversation. Here's a few ideas you can use or ignore 1. Charge $10 to $15 as a per class fee for non-members. For a one time visiting blackbelt, you can always waive the mat fee (you're the owner). 2. Borrow one from the church and place a "love offering" can with some subtle explaination on it that donations are accepted to help with dojang upkeep since visitors don't pay ongoing dues. 3. Offer a monthly $10 seminar for blackbelts and blackbelt club members only. This would just be the class you teach to blackbelt club members as part of their upsale, but some small income from the occaisonal guest blackbelt. Then tell them they can come to those for the nominal fee, or enroll as a regular student. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 08:32:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Studio Regulation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Perhaps something like is done in higher education in the US where a group like North Central provides accreditation to a university would work in the MAs...??? How is it handled in countries where regluation occurrs? How can it be accomplished so that one group/discipline/art doesn't control over different, perhaps non-traditional, arts? Or can it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Ray, I'm an odd case in that I work for the City government, but feel that government should be small. As I grow older I can say that leaving everything to capitalist balance doesn't always work either (like drilling for oil in nature preserves, and letting industrial plants decide what level of sewage discharge and air contamination are acceptable....Oops wrong list wrong soap box..... Anyway, I know many on list are totally opposed to groups like NAPMA, but they have created an accreditation process. I personally have not pursued it, but something like that could grow from the ground up. Our various NGB's are also supposed to serve that function, but realistically to a consumer what difference would they care if I had a studio certificate from WTSDA, AAU, AIKIA, ATA, JRI or USKMAF. My other concern would be what creditials and background would the issuers of acreditation have. To make my point here in Georgia it is illegal to apply accupuncture treatments UNLESS you are an M.D. (not an O.M.D.). So if you're trained as an O.M.D. and had hands on training in the use of accupuncture needles it's illegal, but if you have a medical degree from the AMA, regardless of the fact that you may have never used accupuncture needles it's OK...hmmm? I can just see a 10th Dan in Choi Kwan Do telling me I'm not qualified to teach breaking to my Tang Soo Do students...or a supreme grandmaster of American Freestyle Karate telling me that Olympic Style sparring is too dangerous and not sanctioned.... A long way of saying in the case of martial arts, let's let the student decide. The average lifespan of a new studio is still 0 to 3 years, so I believe only the ones that provide quality instruction like GM West, GM Timmerman, and Master Allison, will be able to sustain themselves as full time ventures for the long haul. Just my $0.02 Charles R. www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] reading the mail Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just a heads-up... Some of the fakes and frauds that are sometimes discussed here also read this list. Hopefully they will learn and grow from it, but I have my doubts. Anyway, be careful of what you say/email from a work related address. Even tho you speak the truth, some of these scum bags will attempt to cause problems for you at your place of employment. It has been tried on me and others. On me it failed, but you might fare differently. A word of advice, I would not post to ANY non-work related forum from a work related email address. Even if you are only saying positive things it can still come back to haunt you, esp this day-n-age. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: jmchie@wideopenwest.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: On second thought Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:40:22 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I assume what is being discussed is some form of government regulation? Because, after all, the current setup is essentially private. If you belong to an assocation or organization you are 'regulated' by them to the extent that they have and neforce conditions of membership. The problem with government regulation is essentially the same thing that is wrong with all government regulation. You have well-minded and often those considered expert in the field calling for regulation, but they do not end up being the regulators. If I had to put up with 'regulators' I would gladly accept many who are on this list, but how many on this list would accept such a position? How do you *ensure* that the regulators have the same values as you? What happens when Pelligrini, et al., get on the regulating board and then their students after them? The system could come to stand for everything you thought it would stand against, and then 'they' would have the ability to claim legitimacy through the government. And that's just within one subspecialty of the martial arts, which consists of other arts in as much or greater internal turmoil. If you have national regulation, you have the problem of regulators not being able to enforce and keep track of regulations because presumably whatever staff is involved in enforcement would be small. The bureaucratic organization becomes nothing more than a certification office, with little time to check out claims, possibly open to bribery, and in any event no one can guarantee they would come to the same conclusions we have. If you have local regulation, well, you essentially have similar problems. Lack of funds, manpower, and to boot if only certain localities are regulated then you have other areas that are not. I have yet to see a regulatory model that adequately addresses the kinds of concerns raised, and you know that if any legislation were to be passed then those with the most money and the best press would probably have the most influence. That does not sound like the deck is stacked in 'our' favor. I personally think the answer is to have better public relations. I believe it is good fortune that the leaders of the larger organizations that frequent this list are indeed experts in their field, and perhaps rightly so the favored model is to simply keep teaching to the best ability possible. But a little public relations never hurt anyone. More articles, more coverage of seminars and events. Don't allow the TKD Times, or any other publication, ignore us. Get our message out to the public. Let the public know that there is a difference--that it's ok if they want to go the cheap and easy route, but in the end that there *is* a difference in the product. Regulation in my mind is the very nature of what we strive against--the easy alternative that doesn't work. Pass a law, let the government take care of it. I don't think it would neither address the concerns raised nor function in any way any of us would consider adequate. Just a couple thoughts. Jim McHie Jr. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:58:16 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Jumping Over Kids Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dakin: Thank you for your post. No, I did not take it that you were "too rough on me". Yes, I did say that ALL of my students to include Adults and kids were there but if you would see my Adult class right now, you'd understand. Sometimes there is only 2 or 3 at the most there lately. That particular night there were 2. So, I HAD to use kids. No, it's not my preference to use kids to perform this kick over but sometimes you have to use what's available. I too have seen guys do breaking kicks over kids and did not think much of them for doing that. But given the facts that I was already running class over by 10 minutes, there were not enough adults to use for the kick, and that I was getting the look from everyone to do something quickly, I had to, as Gunny Hightower would say "Adapt, Improvise, and Overcome". I look forward to reading all of your posts as I have always. James Morgan --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Helstrom, Carl" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:56:44 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Jumping over kids Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I too was appalled when I saw a red belt line up 4 of our youngest students. There was a master in the ring and I expected him to switch to folding chairs or a bench. I was an orange belt with less than 18 months of study, what did I know. Everyone oohed and awed, but I was pissed! I discussed this with my instructor (after I calmed down because I wanted to deck the master for allowing such a risky adventure! Like I said: what did I know.) He told me that his instructor and the master wouldn't allow a competitor to something he or she is not capable of achieving. Though I did agree with my instructor's statement. And I believe wholeheartedly that the vast majority instructors, masters and grand masters of our respective disciplines are the best ever produced. Why take unnecessary chances. Yes, put an object there instead of a young student. Even though if its pulled off to the excitement of the crowd its not worth the risk. Carl --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Wicker, H. Keith" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 13:35:15 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Stripes on black belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear List, I personally do not like stripes on black belts. I think that stripes are counter to what the black belt means to me. I see only three reasons to wear stripes: 1. The organization that one is a member has so many black belts, that the Master(s) may need a way to remember the rank of his/her black belt students, therefore the stripes are for the purpose of the Master(s), not the person wearing the black belt. 2. The wearer of the black belt needs to "show off" his current rank (ego driven), which to me is a contradiction to the whole meaning of being a black belt. 3. The Dan members in a school have poor memory and cannot remember where to line up when class starts. FWIW Keith Wicker 2nd Dan (with no stripes on my belt) Wicker's Korean Martial Arts, USKMAF --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 14:56:05 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Jumping_Over_Kids?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My screw-ups are very rare, occuring only on those day of the week whose names end in "Y". What I have found pretty much supports everything everyone else is saying. 1.) You Mess-up. 2.) You learn from it. 3.) You work not to mess-up again. I can tell you that it the best thing in the World NOT to try to minimize or ignore it when it happens. Adults and kids, even little kids (maybe ESPECIALLY little kids) have great little BS detectors. IME the greatest source of BS is not Bulls but folks trying to get other people to believe they are above making mistakes, or what happened is REALLY not a mistake. Folks have heard me say in the past that the worse thing that can happen to a person in this country is to held accountable. Well, I tend to believe that part of my role as a teacher is to show students that it is possible to accept responsibility--- yes, to be HELD accountable--- and survive it with grace. I think the kid-jumping fiasco was a good move in this direction. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:54:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Safety Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net After watching another instructor jump over a bunch of little kids, he instead set up metal folding chairs to jump over. If anyone was going to be injured, it was going to be him, not the kids! I'm sure a lot of people will think I'm being too rough on you, but safety comes pretty high on my list of priorities. If this post helps protect one kid, it was worth it. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Dakin, Thanks for reminding me why I use a body sheild (or two) for dive rolls and flying kick obstacles. I agree, let's not put our students in harms way. In my mind the dojang is a safe haven (sometimes the only one) to break through issues, not get broken. Yours in Safety, Charles R. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:58:48 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Govt Regulation. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Government Regulation is never the answer. It will always stifle creativity. But it will eventually come to this country of the lawsuit and will be forced to teach in a manner not productive to proper training of my students. I will then become an underground instructor. Michael Rowe --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: On second thought To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 14:51:47 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I assume what is being discussed is some form of government > regulation? Well, maybe not... The North Central accreditation approach isn't government (I don't think). Colleges and universities can open up and issue diplomas, but the diploma is only worth anything if the school is accredited. You note these fly-by-night schools advertised where you can 'obtain' your Ph.D. due to your life experience, right. Well, sure, you can buy your Ph.D., but it isn't worth what you paid for it. A North Central approach would check into these claims made by chubby wannabes and realize they are false, therefore no accreditation. To those in Europe, where I believe there is some type of MA regulation... How is it done? Does it work? Has it gotten out of hand? Do you recommend it? Why? Why not? Can you stand on your head and chew gum at the sametime??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 19:25:04 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> I consider our dojang a traditional hapkido dojang and I apologize as I deleted the author's name and the rest of the email so I hope that you were joking about the above comments and that I have gravely taken the text out of context. As far as tales concerning not washing belts and letting them hit the ground, that is just sort of disgusting. The first time I was informed of this so called tradition I was rather shocked (I had been a KMA practitioner for about 20 years at that time), the teacher did not know why he followed this tradition. But to not wash your belt is disgusting. Sure I do not wash my belt whenever I wash my dobok (I have about 30 that I actively wear and my wife has about 20, so washing dobok day takes all weekend). But it does need to be clean and free of offensive odors and bacteria, just like the REST of your dobok (I hope). After all, I may be wearing my dobok (and belt) 8 plus hours in one day, 7 days a week. As far as not letting the belt touch the ground, I guess then the practice of falling and ground fighting techniques would have to be eliminated in hapkido as well as properly folding ones dobok after class, so I am just at a loss as to why or how ones belt would not touch the floor. Once again, I apologize if the aforementioned comments were stated in amusement of certain unpractical rumors thought to be traditions. IMHO Jere R. Hilland www.hapkidoselfdefense.com --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "Patrick L" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 16:54:25 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] regulation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Terry, I am opposed to regulation. I am opposed to it because it WILL NOT result in improved control over legitimacy, it will only make possible CONTROL over "legitimacy". What high ranking BB believes that the organizations sanctioned by the Korean Gov't were started with purely altruistic reasons. Those with Political influence gained control. Only they are allowed to award certificates that are "recognized by the Korean Gov't". Has that resulted in quality control? I think not. Personally, given what I suspect about the Korean Gov't in the 1950s through 1980's and the organizations sanctioned by it, I have no desire for such a degree. Don't you think that influence and bribery dictated events more than "legitimacy". Don't you think that will continue here in the States? Getting in the Way, Patrick >How is it handled in countries where regulation occurrs? How can it be accomplished so that one group/discipline/art doesn't control over different, perhaps non-traditional, arts? Or can it? Ray Terry< _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustugold@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest