Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:14:02 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #280 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. NK TKD (Robert Martin) 2. Re: belts (Lucy Westcott) 3. Grandmaster Suk Hwan Choi (gaby noufaily) 4. RE: Legitimacy (Michael Rowe) 5. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Touching_the_ground..._?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 6. RE: On another Angle (Michael Rowe) 7. Dignified Men with Character. (Dewitt, Garrett) 8. Various (R. Banham) 9. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Legitimacy_and_Authenticity_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 10. 20th Camarillo Mayor's Cup, info (Ray Terry) 11. Legitimacy, regulation, and washing one's belt (Burdick, Dakin R) 12. KMA in the DPRK (Burdick, Dakin R) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Robert Martin" To: Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 00:05:16 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] NK TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It is really incorrect to referee to NK TKD. The art is ITF TKD as taught though out the world. The NK are, as you would expect, very good. The dominated the recent ITF championship in Greece. This is, for them, a matter of life and death almost. All of the North's sports are run on the old communist system. However, TKD is taught on a somewhat broader level there. Choi Hong Hi introduced TKD to the NKs in the early 1980's (1983 I think?). GM Charles Sereff was a member of the group that traveled to the North at that time. It has been reported that no martial arts, outside of the military, existed before that time. It was believed by the North that martial arts were to individual. In 2001 I had the opportunity to meet some of the North Korean TKDers. Most are very young and very serious. TKD is their life. As long as they perform will they and their families will be cared for much as it was in Russia and eastern Europe in the bad old days. There is current discussion between Mr. Chang Ung and Dr. Kim about allowing ITF members to participate in the next Olympics. There was a meeting in Colorado Springs a few months ago at USTU headquarters and meetings in other places as well. The ITF has also applied for membership in the GAISF through the IMCG which operates the International Martial Arts Games, a mixed martial arts tournament. Of course, the other two ITFs are still up and running. Robert Martin > Message: 6 > From: Ray Terry > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 08:11:14 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: [The_Dojang] NK TKD > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > > Thanks for the article. I wish it might have included some mention of the > > schooling system that produces the respective systems that were compared. > > As I recall, the ITF made inroads to NK when Gen. Choi was fostering better > relations between NK and himself/ITF. It has been said that NK TKD is > ITF TKD. True, but imho only because of Gen. Choi developing a relationship > in his latter years with the NK political structure. > > Another article I seem to recall was about a foreign visitor to NK that asked > to see NK TKD. He (she?) was taken to see the national team. What probably > occurred, as did behind the iron curtain, was if you were an excellent athlete > with talent/interest in martial arts that became your more than fulltime > job. This was what the NK visitor was able to view. Not your local dojang, > if such a thing even exists in NK (probably not). > > I don't believe any real KMA tradition in NK survived the 1900-1945 period. > (Dakin?) The division of Korea after WWII, similar to the division of > Europe, no doubt ensured the death of 'traditional' KMAs (you know... like > TKD :). > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Lucy Westcott" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:56:05 +1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I was told not to wash my belt, and I was given two reasons 1.  The superstition: if you wash your belt, you will wash the knowledge out of your belt and 2.  The logical: if you wash colour belts, the colour fades out of them very badly. Lucy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hotmail now available on Australian mobile phones. Click here for more. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "gaby noufaily" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 11:41:51 +0300 Subject: [The_Dojang] Grandmaster Suk Hwan Choi Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Does anyone know grandmaster Suk Hwan Choi the IT director of the korea hapkido federation, if yes what can you  say about him ? thanks  abuelgab ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 06:55:18 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Legitimacy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> I mean that it is legitimate in that it is an actual certification that actually exists and is what it says it is. Based on most postings here I will never expect anyone to accept anything GM Pellegrini issues to be legitimate. Despite all this no rank is legitimate, it is opinion, the opinion of the people who critique you and sign their name. All of it is political in the end. <> I have never seen even ONE human being in the last 2000+ years who has met that criteria. Michael Rowe --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 06:42:29 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Touching_the_ground..._?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jere and Mark: ".....I never understood the touching-the-ground thing. Breakfalls, situps, groundwork etc all have it touching. I think the intent here is not to use it as a jumprope or leave it crumpled in the corner....." The only reason I am writing is because this is a pet peeve of mine. I see this quite a bit when I teach or attend seminars and it never fails to provoke the ol' "fingernails-on-the-blackboard" response to my nervous system. There isn't really any cosmic significance associated to tossing a belt on the floor--- at least not for me. I get the same response when my grandchildren come home from some occasion and s*** goes flying every which way. Backpack in the corner, shoes by the couch, coats on a chair---- anyone with kids knows what I mean. Now, I can cut them some slack 'cuz their kids, and little kids at that. But when one is dealing with rational adults involved in an activty of which mental and physical discipline are important components, mindlessly scattering things around their changing area in the lockerroom seems at odds with what we are working to develop in ourselves and others. Mindfulness, which is to say "being in the here&now" is not something one puts on when simply bowing onto the mat. To me, sloppy habits are indicative of a sloppy mind and scattering ones' uniform and belt around an area rather than neatly folding it, respectfully and putting it in a bag, is an indication that some message is not getting through on some level. I am also not real fond of just stuffing uniform and equipment into a sack, either, but again, thats just me. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 07:18:28 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: On another Angle Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> GM Pellegrini has never told me anything about NATO counter-intelligence training. Only thing he has ever said to me was in regards to Para-jumping. And since I don't have the article in front of me I don't know what is being claimed either. The receiving of counter-intelligence training is no big deal. It is standard fare in many military training programs. I was trained in aspects of counter-intelligence while in the Navy. But I never worked actively in that realm. << I work closely with NATO, in particular J2. I called in a few favors to check this out. The man only served one year - his Italian National Service. He did not have "specialized training" and my aquaintances laughed at the idea of "NATO Counter-Intelligence 'combat training'">> While I know that nobody on the list sent this, it was forwarded, I only ask under what name they looked under? John Pellegrini is not the proper name he used while an Italian Citizen. Also I am always wary of people who have "connections" check things out. I'm not a blind follower but I like to know my sources. Michael Rowe --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Dewitt, Garrett" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 07:31:18 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Dignified Men with Character. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Grandmaster J.R. West wrote: "When it comes to regulating our instructors, the main objection that I have with it would be the HUGE number of goobers that have wormed their way into high profile positions without having spent the required time getting there, or just plain lying about their credentials. These charlatans are generally the most vocal and visual of our group, and without a doubt, THEY would be the ones that would be put in charge of policing those that keep a slightly lower and more dignified profile......J. R. West " Hello Grandmaster West. Your words resonate one thousand times the volume here. This is why dignified men like you and Grandmaster Rudy Timmerman, with strong perseverance and character, lead the majority in truth. The truth is the truth. I thank you both for your vigilance. Master Garrett DeWitt Brainerd Martial Arts. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "R. Banham" To: Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:41:12 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] Various Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I was thinking about the subject of legitimacy and the following occurred to me. I know I operate in UK and as someone else so rightly put it, it's like a large state, but why does it matter about the size? Surely what matters most is your own neighbourhood and that can be "overseen". When I was just a mean and hungry 1st dan back in the '70s, I and my senior students would visit any other club operating in the locality and 'check it out'. If we didn't think it met our standards or was teaching unsafe or unrealistic technique we would make sure the school closed down one way or the other. A bit arrogant and possibly against the ethics of the martial arts we teach today but was it? In the East, they would probably have challenged the teacher to a duel with swords or hatchets and let the one left alive continue to operate! These days, it is easy enough to close somewhere down using the power of the law. As was also stated, insurance, child protection, teaching qualifications etc. are all weapons that can be used in UK and I'm sure in US. A quick 'hi' to Master West. I promise I'll come and visit when I'm next in Mississippi. Bob Banham --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 07:13:31 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Legitimacy_and_Authenticity_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Michael and Patrick: ".....Legitimacy based upon an appeal to authority only stands if the authority is recognised as not having compromised its own values. I have yet to meet a collection of people that meets that criteria. I do not need, nor allow the Korean Gov't, or Master Seo, nor any other Master save my own to determine my "legitimacy"......." Before I say anything else let me say that I am NOT interested in going down the "Pelligrini Highway" one more time. The reason I am writing is because Patrick, in his response to Michael, inadvertantly hit a very important point for me and I think it wants for discussion right now. IF--(in deference to Patricks' commen)---- one DOES seek out legitimacy by aligning with a particular organization or personality what happens when the personality or organization change? I recently received a letter I requested from Sara Seo, General Secretary of the World Kido Fed. providing an explanation of sorts for what has transpired between the World Kido Fed and the Korea Kido Assn. In a nutshell, apparently they have each gone their own way. OK, so far no problem. "Stuff Happens". But now, lets take a look at things through a different set of eyes. There are times, occasionally, when the question comes up about how retiscent my students are to get involved with organizations. You will recall I think that the majority of private students I have are refugees from abusive situations at other schools. When I meet them they are often pretty damn angry about how they were misused or abused and I can't blame them. One of my goals for them, however, is to work towards getting reconnected with legit organizations and therefore once again have opportunities to network with other KMA. Just how am I, as a teacher, suppose to explain to these damaged students that one of the premier personalities in the Hapkido arts has gone one way and a premier organization has gone another way? The WKF was no real help. Accompanying my letter was an invitation to some shindig in Korea and would I like to take a tour? What the hell is THAT? If I wanted to travel I would get a travel agent!! No information about up- coming seminars, or what Steve is doing, or the next time we can expect to see GM Seo. On the other hand, I have not been able to find anyone with which to connect with the KKA either (Do they give a S*** about me?). I don't find my school (certified by them) on their website. I have no idea who this GM Kim Jung Sung is and have no information from the organization about the status of my school or students. My certs all bear validation of both organizations as well as my original certs by the WHF and GM Myung---- which is another situation which is rapidly going the same way. GM Myung has had health problems (diabetes, I think) and advised me that he will not be making any seminars this year (in contradiction to a posting that says he will be doing something in Florida in the Fall). The newsletter is stonewalled, and no one is going out of their way to take up the slack. (It would have helped if GM Myung had designated someone to continue training opportunities and so maintain the cohesion of the organization.) You may all remember some pretty heated posts I made many months back about leadership and organizations and this is what I was alluding to. I think Patricks' point is very well made and I for one would appreciate if the powers-that-be would answer for themselves. GM Seo's letter thanked members in advance for their "loyalty". Maybe someone needs to remind me exactly what it is that I am encouraging my students to be loyal to. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 06:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] 20th Camarillo Mayor's Cup, info Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Received in the mail... The 20th Camarillo Mayor's Cup Tae Kwon Do Championship Saturday, August 9 8:30 AM Oxnard College Gym 4000 S. Rose Ave. Oxnard, Calif Hosted by GM Yong S. Shin: Tae Ryong Taekwondo School 2249 Pickwick Dr. Camarillo, Calif 93010 No registrations after August 2 805-388-KICK FAX: 805-383-3000 http://www.trtkd.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:30:45 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Legitimacy, regulation, and washing one's belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray wrote: How is it handled in countries where regluation occurrs? How can it be accomplished so that one group/discipline/art doesn't control over different, perhaps non-traditional, arts? Or can it? Me: I would say this is my whole concern about regulation. The UK has a system of regulation, and a history of having its educational innovations make the leap over the Atlantic to us. So what you see there is our future. What I see is a system of good professional instruction with a lot of uniformity. The first part is good; the second part is bad. The black belts I have seen from the UK tend to be good commercial instructors, with an excellent safety record, but with a penchant for inertia in terms of innovation. For my money, the martial arts are a highly individualistic enterprise where geniuses and idiots abound. The problem, of course, is figuring out which your current guru is! The NAPMA plan is a money-making one, and has a similar flavor to the British stuff, except that they are very selective as to whom they want involved in shaping the future of the arts (ie. they want their own guys doing it, for the most part). Not the kind of feel I want from a national organization! I would prefer to see more inclusivity. Jim McHie pointed out: What happens when Pelligrini, et al., get on the regulating board and then their students after them? Me: And that is exactly what would happen. Pelligrini has the numbers and the commercial savvy, and that is what it takes to be in control. If you don't like what you see from his organization, then you probably wouldn't like regulation. Michael Rowe wrote: Government Regulation is never the answer. It will always stifle creativity. But it will eventually come to this country of the lawsuit and will be forced to teach in a manner not productive to proper training of my students. I will then become an underground instructor. Me: Did anyone else hear the tip-tap of the little fingers in the FBI noting this one down? :) Jere Hilland wrote: But to not wash your belt is disgusting. Sure I do not wash my belt whenever I wash my dobok (I have about 30 that I actively wear and my wife has about 20, so washing dobok day takes all weekend). ..... As far as not letting the belt touch the ground, I guess then the practice of falling and ground fighting techniques would have to be eliminated in hapkido as well as properly folding ones dobok after class, so I am just at a loss as to why or how ones belt would not touch the floor. Me: Well, I don't wash my belt and I TRY not to let it touch the floor. Here's why. I don't wash my belt because it is really hard to dry. If I dry it too much, it crinkles and looks stupid. If I dry it too little, it rots. I washed my first belt (white) and one day when I pulled the knot tight, it popped apart. My instructor thought it was hilarious. :) As for the disgusting part, that belt is so soaked with salt that no germs could ever survive on it! As for touching the floor, my military-trained instructors said to treat my belt like the flag. My Japanese instructors felt that the belt had a spirit and should be treated reverently, just like sparring pads and every other piece of training gear. Touching the floor with the belt while getting thrown is perfectly ok. Maybe the rule should be "treat your belt as you would like to be treated." Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 10:20:18 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] KMA in the DPRK Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray wrote: I don't believe any real KMA tradition in NK survived the 1900-1945 period. Me: Peter Hyun, who came to the US in the 1920s, says that North Koreans traditionally used head-butting, while South Koreans used kicking and tripping. Sounds about right. After the Korean War, I think any martial arts disappeared. My belief is that the PRC would prove a useful analogy for the DPRK. In the PRC, martial arts instructors were stoned to death because in a communist state, anyone who teaches self-defense must be a criminal (because there's no need for self-defense in a system where everyone shares). Isn't that special? Also, traditional martial arts used a feudal organization of power and loyalty to ones' instructor rather than to the state. This was also discouraged in the PRC. More to the point, TKD came to the DPRK in the 1980s thanks to Gen. Choi and Chuck Sereff. I'd be really curious to see what goes with the traditional Korean communities across the border in the PRC. Anybody know? Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719.866.4632 FAX 719.866.4642 ustugold@mailsnare.net www.ustu.org Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest