Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:03:10 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #307 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: schools (near Dorchester MASS) (Dragons81@aol.com) 2. Schools in UK (R. Banham) 3. Re: school near Dorchester, MA for Kat (Denise Lee) 4. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Organizational_stuff_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 5. Re: ITF split (Robert Martin) 6. Trouble, money, and politics in martial arts (Rudy Timmerman) 7. Re: ITF Split (Dave Steffen) (Dave Steffen) 8. Re: Ray's post (ABurrese@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Dragons81@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 07:16:30 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: schools (near Dorchester MASS) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The Matkd website lists two schools in Boston, although I can not say which one is better. http://www.matkd.com/schools/showresult.php?goal=Search&category=Boston& recordDisplay=complete Lee's TKD Connection at http://www.tkdbest.com and the J H Kim TKD Institute at http://www.tkd-boston.com Good luck wih these reccomendations Kat Kelly. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "R. Banham" To: Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:30:41 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] Schools in UK Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We aren't located in London but are only 100 miles away. 100 miles is a long way in England but I know that to Americans it's just a step up the road! Check our website for location. www.nskma.co.uk We welcome visitors from anywhere at any time. Master Bob Banham --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Denise Lee" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] school near Dorchester, MA for Kat Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:18:19 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > 2. I have had a summer visitor joining us in class while she was here > visiting her aunt and she is hooked on martial arts. She lives in Dorchester > Mass. If there are schools anyone could recommend that she investigate upon > her return home, I would appreciate having the info to pass on to her. Kat- You might refer her to Master Harold Whelan. Although I have no experience with Master Whelan, I have always noted him to be referred to on this list with the utmost respect -- as an individual and for his HapKiDo. I'm originally from Massachusetts, so the geography is familiar to me. Master Whelan is listed on the USKMAF member school page http://www.hapkido.com/schools.htm with his MuDo Academy in Weymouth, MA. Weymouth is easily drivable from Dorchester -- maybe evern accessable by the "T" (public transportation). His phone number and e-mail address can be found with his school listing. I hope this helps! All the best- Denise --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 08:14:51 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Organizational_stuff_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Alain: ".....So, while organizations have a place, and as long as there are organizations there will be politics, let’s try and remember the true meaning behind training, and that what others do to attempt to boost their self-esteem really doesn’t hurt us, unless we are not comfortable with who we are and what we can do. We really shouldn’t need a certificate on the wall, belt around our waist or anything else to know that we are improving and becoming better people as well as better martial artists. Yes, recognition is nice, and important to a point, but the true benefit of training is within......." Maybe its just me, but I think that there needs to be a line drawn between two parts of your post and I think the key word here is "politics". I don't know anyone who signs up for an organization because someone advises them that there will be a S***-load of politics involved. I don't know anyone who signs up for an organization hoping that whatever the "company line" is will be demonstrated to be false in time. I joined the USKMAF and advocate for both it AND the NKMAA BECAUSE politics is decried. I don't hear JR and Rudy "playing the dozens" with each other on the DD in an effort to make one person seem bigger at the expense of the other. I don't hear you, or Rich, or Mac banging around in the media with grandiose claims to trumpet their own importance. As a result, lo-and- behold each year--- twice a year--- folks will get together down in Jackson and have a great experience. In fact, if there is any chance at all, we might even get a similar thing going with Rudy in the Northern tier of States. But the sad thing is that this will be INSPITE of organizations like the KHF, WKF, WHF, and KKA not BECAUSE of them. I hope, Alain, that you appreciate how great a thing it is to have a direct connection with a traditional teacher back in Korea. I'm guessing that the same thing can be said for Hal and others, but lets face it, you all are exceptions rather than the rule. Even JR's connection with Dr. Kimm isn't something everyone enjoys. For those folks who cannot enjoy such connections they are stuck with the KHF, Hackworth and all the attendent chaos. What is worse is that without sufficient information people can't make educated decisions about who and what will be good for them and the direction they see their MA experience taking them. I have worked hard to hold onto a live-and-let-live approach but must report that I have failed miserably. I am sure the single biggest contributing factor to this is that such a L&LL approach is not returned. Chaos like this in the KMA community often seems to me like the MA equivalent of living in an apartment building where the neighbor cranks his stereo on a regular basis. Some people grit their teeth and hunker-down, and others risk an altercation over personal freedoms by going over to the offending apartment and asking them to turn it down. I don't have a problem with these commercial folks nor with what it is that they want to do. Its the WAY that it must be done--- advertising, over-statement, marginal truths--- that are the sand in my shoes. It is in the nature of commercial venture--- and to some extent in the Korean psyche' at the origin of these arts--- that there is one "greatest", penultimate, "best", or "most" and the inevitable fighting that comes when someone wants to know how those claims are backed-up. Stir in money and power to the mix and its no wonder that my students fiercely reject ANY interest in things organizational. I truely envy your situation and that of others like you. However, the overwhelming numbers of KMA practitioners are stuck with the crap that comes with many of these organizations, like it or not. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 07:55:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Martin To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ITF split Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Several comments have been made about the ITF split and they seem to be accurate as far as I'm aware. I do have a few updates. 1. "Master Tran Quan" group -- Master Mel Steiner of the US reportedly has joined this group along with a couple of IX Dans to become the US rep to this ITF. Master Steiner was with the Master Choi group for a while. 2. "North Korea" group -- GM Hwang of the KATU is the rep for this group in the US. They renamed the group to reflect being the US rep -- USA-ITF. 3. "Master Choi" group -- there are, I believe, at least four groups representing the US. They all seem to get along fairly well. (In Canada, there was a major split with the INO there. Several large schools have gone independent.) 4. GM Sereff has been courted by all the groups at one time or another. His most recent note (yesterday) indicates that the USTF will not be joining any of them in the near future. The USTF is preparing to send seveal people to Australia for an International tournament this fall. I believe that teams from many countries will be attending. They are all members or former members of one ITF or another. That should be interesting. The future is still pretty murky. The rumors are that Master Choi's group is running out of money as is Master Quan's. It has also been reported (and I don't believe it) that Master Choi was offered a position in the North Korean group. His mother supports this group and she owns many of the symbols of the ITF. There are also several lawsuits pending on who owns what. Most recently Fugi Imports settled with the USTF over the use of badges and ITF "tree" in the US. The North Korean group has had several high level discussions with the WTF about ITF members participating in the Olympics. Visiting the various groups websites can be most interesing. We can only hope that things will settle down and shake out over the next couple of years. Robert Martin V Dan USTF --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:32:20 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Trouble, money, and politics in martial arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Alain writes: > It’s just troublesome to see so much bickering and fighting among > people, to be called names by people, all over money and politics. Hello Alain: I suspect that KHF, as most other major organizations, is mostly interested in their bottom line (who brings in the most money). For this reason, any emails we might write to KHF will surely fall on deaf ears, unless we can bring in more money, prestige, or other valuable goods to the org. Most people on this list have complained for years about a certain other individual's position in a major org... all without result. The reason for lack of action is simple, no one else brings as many people to their functions. Unless others are willing to step up to the plate and deliver the goods (read money), nothing will change. Hence, I fear bickering is not about to end anytime soon. Like it or not, martial arts at that level is a business, and ALL businesses must look after their bottom line or they will cease to exist. I am certain that KHF looks at their bottom line in the same way any other corporation looks at their bottom line, and it seems long term planning is not a KHF strong point. Sure, they will keep an eye on the complaints they receive (or are about to receive); however, unless complainants are willing and able to make a significant monetary contribution to KHF right now (read more members, seminars, or other money making or prestigious events covered by the media), that is ALL we can most likely expect. We will write our letters (like Ray said: " it won't hurt"); however, to make a real change, KHF will want to find someone who is willing to work many hours (usually without pay) to make KHF grow. Such a person would need to have good marketing skills (sound familiar), a better personality (not hard), a loyal following (the more the better) willing to attend functions (spend money), and a driving need for recognition (often to obtain higher rank they have not earned the usual way) from the respective org. ("giving" recognition is cheaper for an org. than it is to pay someone for these services). Anyone willing/able to step up to the plate and do the above will help KHF make the change it would like to have (no org. likes to receive so many nasty letters about their rep.). Barring that, you can expect KHF to merrily continue the way they have in order to maintain their bottom line... and the bickering will continue. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Dave Steffen Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:34:52 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ITF Split (Dave Steffen) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Christopher Spiller writes: > Dave Steffen said: > >Master Choi was elected president of the ITF a few > years before the General died; those who stayed with > General Choi (the "old" ITF)claim the election was > unconstitutional.< > > Is this the case? I'm not privy to much high up info in the ITF or > anything but the common criticism I have heard regarding Master > Choi and his presidency was not that the election was > unconstitutional but rather that there was a growing chance of a > merger with the WTF and that General Choi was the only one who > could lead the ITF during such a time. I have heard that some who remained with the General considered Master Choi's election to be unconstitutional. On what basis they claim that, I don't know. A more commonly expressed sentiment is that Master Choi's election was nonsensical; how do you vote the founder of the art out of office? There is a larger issue here, conserning some fundamental conflicts between democratic processes and the way that martial arts traditionally work. It is true that things were (are?) happening between the ITF and WTF, and that many people (everyone?) believed that the General was the only one who could get that to happen from the ITF side. Personally, I think thnk this is a good reason to support the the General but a bad reason to ignore Master Choi's election. One could imagine a lot of scenarios under which things could have worked out amicably, but alas, they didn't. BTW, merging the ITF and WTF was one of the General's dreams. Personally, I suspect that part of the reason the General wanted Chang Ung to succeed him was that, as a North Korean, Mr. Ung would have a greater chance of doing this. > Of course, according to people who know Master Choi the reason was > that he basically told the North Koreans that they could be members > of the ITF but would not be exercising any undo influence over the > organization. Again, this is just what I have heard and read on the > internet and am *not* looking to start a flame war! Well, mayube. However, GM Hwang told me several years before the split that the North Koreans had offered to give the ITF a lot of money - to, essentially, sponsor the ITF in much the same way that the South Korean government sponsors the WTF - and that the General had turned them down, because he didn't want the North Koreans to have undue influence. So, I suspect that there was agreement bewteen the various high ranking people that North Korean influence should be avoided. Now: yes, the General wanted a North Korean government member to be President after he died; GMs Rhee and Hwang supported this, and we now have Mr. Ung as President. General Choi made several statements to the effect that he thought Mr. Ung was the right guy for the job, and that Mr. Ung's position with the Norht Korean government would not mean the North Koreans would have an undue influence over the ITF. If Mr. Ung is the ethical person the General said he is - and I have no reason to believe otherwise - this would indeed be the case. But you can't blame people for wondering. ;-) > >Yes, there are several US Governing Bodies. I am > under the impression (and may be wrong about this) > that the NGBs don't have as much control over the > individual schools; they are set up to handle the > paperwork.< > > I think that is going to depend on each INO. One of the things > about the INO and the independent dojang structure is that it's > going to make things more competetive as far as what an > organization is going to offer its members, IMO. This may be the case; I don't completely understand how Master Choi's ITF is structured. I'll reply to the rest of your post shortly; I'm having some connectivity issues right now. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen, Ph.D. Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:48:33 -0400 From: ABurrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Ray's post Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray posted: "Who is John Johnson and what is his official duty in the KHF? Is it his job to offend Masters in the USA to the >>>point of putting his personal safety on the line? Is his alternative lifestyle relationship with Ray Terry supported by the federation?" Is this person making a threat to John over something he posted? Give me a break. And what’s with the insults toward both John and Ray? This is exactly what I was talking about in the longer post I wrote. This “offending a master crap” that I have seen more than once, and the threats and sneak attacks that follow are sheer stupidity, and show the lack of self-esteem and character of those spouting off such BS. What next, threats of taking away your rank? (How the hell can you take away someone's knowledge and ability? And that's what is important. That and the person's character.) Because my wife, who is Korean and has a degree in English, translated a word differently than an American who speaks Korean (not to mention several dictionaries that translated the word that way too) I get threats and insults. I get threats and insults from someone I don’t even know, saying I had my wife write something I had no clue about (still don’t). My reply to him was to check his facts before threatening me, since I didn’t write, nor did I have my wife write, what he was referring to. Someone else disagrees with someone, and you get this pulling rank, insulting a grandmaster, etc. That’s some of the most ridiculous cry baby petty nonsense I’ve ever heard. Very low self-esteemed individuals trying to make up for a life of getting bullied, and now hiding behind a rank or certificate on the wall that gives them a sense of some sort of accomplishment and perceived authority over others. It’s not how tough you are or what rank you have, but how you treat people. These threats and stupid games reflect the lack of character a person has. Threats and insults really make you wonder if people are following the true spirit that many of us try to live by and teach. Unfortunately, they are so easy to do on the computer. I hope the people that are making these threats and insults read this, and then step back and take a look at how childish they are being, and assess themselves and how they can be a positive force, rather than negative. Unfortunately, those that are making these threats and insults will probably read this, ignore the message, and then send me more threats and insults because I’m insulting them by calling this behavior petty and stupid. I’d like to share a small part of an e-mail I received this week. “Thanks again for a most excellent workshop- your candor and warmth made it even more fun than I had expected. I thoroughly enjoyed all the day's activities” This was part of an e-mail from an instructor who attended the seminar I gave last Saturday. This kind of note makes it all worth while for me to teach, and ignore the threats and insults that I have received. And I get a lot more of this kind of note from people than the other. But I do have to wonder, and I’ll ask you the same, Why do so many of the negative posts, threats, insults, etc. all revolve around a small group of individuals? And are these petty name calling, e-mail threatening types really worth our time? Look at me, on the soapbox two days in a row. It’s just that these individuals have gotten to me, because I have good, honest martial artists asking me about some of these people because I happen to be affiliated with the same organization, though nothing to do with those in question. And I don’t like seeing the threats to myself, or to others such as John and Ray, like we have been seeing. So maybe, just maybe some of my words can make a little sense and help get all of us back on the right track of training and being better individuals through the arts we practice. Yours in Training, Alain Burrese www.burrese.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11 End of The_Dojang Digest