Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 07:25:03 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #310 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Song of the Sip Sam Seh (George Peters) 2. (no subject) (Madden.Matthew) 3. Re: KHF, Threats to Alain, Insults to Ray (J T) 4. Humor (Ray Terry) 5. Korean Studies Review (Ray Terry) 6. sorry... (Ray Terry) 7. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Another_view_stated?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 8. Re: WTF in NC (Divetony@aol.com) 9. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Intellect_vs_Emotion_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 10. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Question_of_Support?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 11. Re: ITF Split (Dave Steffen) (Christopher Spiller) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "George Peters" To: Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 23:23:15 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Song of the Sip Sam Seh Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Can anyone tell me where the Song of the Sip Sam Seh comes from? Or who wrote it? Respectfully, George Peters --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 09:21:04 -0300 From: "Madden.Matthew" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi, my name is Matt Madden and I had recently signed up for the digest and I have a question concerning rehabilitation after injury.I fought my first wtf tournament 2 months ago and I sprained my ankle in the first round but I went on to take the silver.The sprain was a 3rd degree .I had just started back sparring but it still feels weak in the back of my ankle.Do you know any strenghtening excerices or maybe just with training and time it will heal. Any advice or input will be greatly appreciated. Taekwon Matt --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 05:47:41 -0700 (PDT) From: J T To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: KHF, Threats to Alain, Insults to Ray Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Not that any of this is my business, hell 9 times out of 10 it never is, however, I just need to throw in my regular $.01 (inflation devalues my input now and days). I am not involved in KHF, nor do I think I would want to if this is the type of organization that allows their paper tigers make threats to other members. I feel it is time they start to clean house. If they feel Alain or his wife made some sort of rude comment to someone then why don't they contact him personally and get to the root of the problem? My guess is that the REAL KHF knows better. My instructor once told me that when people talk crap about or make attacks at you then most likely you are doing something right and they are jealous. I have known Alain going on what now 4 or 5 years now Alain? I have known very few people who not only have good heart, but the drive and charisma to make it big in any avenue he chooses. I have read his book and I have seen his video. He is a true warrior in every since of the word and the KHF should be proud to have them under their organization. When I hear some chump making these types of threats, it just angers me to no end, especially when they hide behind phone calls and emails. COWARDS! That is all they are. As for the insults to Ray, those of us who have interactions with him both on and off the list know him to be a stand up guy. Again the people making these remarks are just COWARDS! If KHF is to succeed in the future it best be controling some of their mutts that keep getting out of line and doing these type of things. (Whew!) Now that I have vented I feel better. Thanks. Jeremy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 17:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Humor Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The following is from one of Mr. Hackworth's vast array of linked websites: >> Martial Arts Radio Network Show Topics written by Richard Hackworth, 19.07.2003, 04:37 Topics for upcoming radio show. The Martial Arts Network will be doing some reports on various martial artists and some people who claim to be martial artists. The July 24th show will feature stories on Ray Terry, J.R. West and a few other people that you may not have ever heard of. It will be some of the best martial arts comedy since the Kentucky Fried Movie with Bong Soo Han. I hope that you got to hear the bit we did on Bruce Sims, it was a real knee slapper. Best Regards, Richard Hackworth << I wonder if the show can be heard in Seoul? The KHF may want to listen in... This stuff just gets better and better! Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 07:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean Studies Review Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarded message: I have now returned from my sabbatical and will be getting _Korean Studies Review_ up and running again in the very near future, beginning with a series of reviews from Volume 6.1 of our print partner _Acta Koreana_. During the last several months a number of books have become available, and the volumes below currently await reviewers. Those who are interested in reviewing a book should write me directly at , but please do not volunteer unless you expect to be able to complete your review in a timely fashion. As always, if others have books to put up for review, please contact me as well. For more information about KSR and to access past reviews, see http://koreaweb.ws/ks/ksr/. Best, Stephen Chris Springer, _Pyongyang: The Hidden History of the North Korean Capital_ (Entente Bt.) Han Sung-won, _Father and Son_, tr. by Yu Young-nan & Julie Pickering (Homa & Sekey Books) Lee Muyoung, _Farmers_, tr. by Yu Young-nan (Homa & Sekey Books) Yi In-Hwa, _Everlasting Empire_, tr. by Yu Young-nan (EastBridge) Michael J. Seth, _Education Fever: Society, Politics, and the Pursuit of Schooling in South Korea_ (Hawaii) Choon-Hak Cho, Yeon-Ja Sohn and Heisoon Yang, _Korean Reader for Chinese Characters_ (Hawaii) Louis Baldovi, ed. _A Foxhole View: Personal Accounts of Hawaii's Korean War Veterans_ (Hawaii) Michael Finch, _Min Yong-hwan: A Political Biography_ (Hawaii) Marion Eggert and Soon Mi Hong-Schunka, trs. _Die Geschichte von Hong Kiltong: Ein Raueberroman aus dem alten Korea_, (Iudicium Verlag) James Lewis and Amadu Sesay, edd. _Korea and Globalization: Politics, Economics and Culture_ (RoutledgeCurzon) Donald N. Clark, _Living Dangerously in Korea: The Western Experience, 1900-1950 (EastBridge) David I. Steinberg, _Stone Mirror: Reflections on Contemporary Korea_ (EastBridge) Hwang Suk-Young, Yoon Hueng-Gil, Cho Se-Hui, Choi In-Hoon, _The Voice of the Governor-General and Other Stories of Modern Korea_, tr. Chun Kyung-Ja (EastBridge) Valerie Gelezeau, _Seoul, ville geante, cites radieuses_ (CNRS Editions 2003) --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 07:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] sorry... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sorry the list was down for the last few days. I was out of town for a couple of days last week and then returned to find technical problems with the list. But it looks like things are flowing again. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 09:20:58 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Another_view_stated?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rudy: ".....We will write our letters (like Ray said: " it won't hurt"); however, to make a real change, KHF will want to find someone who is willing to work many hours (usually without pay) to make KHF grow. Such a person would need to have good marketing skills (sound familiar), a better personality (not hard), a loyal following (the more the better) willing to attend functions (spend money), and a driving need for recognition (often to obtain higher rank they have not earned the usual way) from the respective org. ("giving" recognition is cheaper for an org. than it is to pay someone for these services). Anyone willing/able to step up to the plate and do the above will help KHF make the change it would like to have (no org. likes to receive so many nasty letters about their rep.)......" I agree 100% with what you have shared with Alain. I think an important pivot point, however, is the fact that the KHF problems are not limited to those who are members of the KHF. You are certainly right about the motives that allow some of this stuff to go on. For the overwhelming numbers of KMA practitioners business concerns must be paramont. However, that leaves two other populations. One population are those KHF people who are NOT commercial. Perhaps these folks are of such small numbers they are not even worth mentioning. But the other population are the NON-KHF folks who have to put up with Fat Wannabees' shenanigans. Part of his dynamic is to create a sense that he is SO important that EVERYONE is VERY concerned about him. Fact is that without his outrageous statements and marginal business practices he'd never show-up on the radar of anyone except his own people. For my money, I advocate that Non-KHF people leave the KHF to clean their own house. Lamentably they will probably do nothing and Fat Wannabee will probably be re-instated as their rep/director/poobah and folks like Alain and Hal will be pressured to go through him for their KHF needs. For the rest of us, rather than compete within an organization with which we have no actual investment I advocate increased action and support for those groups with a proven track record of integrity and fairness. For my part I press for the USKMAF and the NKMAA. The leadership has the best intersts of the membership at heart. Politics is minimalized or marginalized. Service is sincere and quick. But, for me, the most important point is that everything carries a focus of improving the nature of KMA here where we practice. If the art is to continue to thrive this is too important a responsibility to be left in the hands of of purely commecial interests. I know this will mean that some of us will need to give what we have without necessarily getting compensation. Since this is already a significant part of my philosophy perhaps there will be less need for adjustment for me. Others may find this a bit of a jump. Still, I think that we are facing some point at which standing up to be counted will mean more than just demonstrating a commercially viable school. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Divetony@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 10:28:11 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: WTF in NC Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To all that provided me names of schools in NC, thank you. I now have some direction as to my relocation process. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 09:37:04 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Intellect_vs_Emotion_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Alain: "..... Very low self-esteemed individuals trying to make up for a life of getting bullied, and now hiding behind a rank or certificate on the wall that gives them a sense of some sort of accomplishment and perceived authority over others....." I know what you are working to say, and I wish it was that easy. Fact is, though, that we are dealing with two very different mindsets. On the one hand are folks who all founded in intellect. These are the folks who trade in information and facts, effectively dealing in a world the way it actually is. On the other hand are folks who trade in emotion. They deal with the MA and probably everything else in their lives as it impacts folks emotionally. In this way, for instance, a rank or title is not something that one earns through hardwork but rather a badge that one secures by whatever means so as to elicit "ooohs" and "ahhhs" from easily impressed individuals in the community. Can you see the difference? Dealing with emotion-based folks can be very frustrating. Reason does not resolve problems with these folks, and since emotions carry farther and faster than the slow grinding process of churning sound facts, it always seems like emotion-based folks are perpetually one-step ahead and seem to be "winning" at every turn. There is a point at which facts will catch-up but by then two things will have become apparent. 1.) The emotion based person will have already done their damage and 2.) most people will have tired of things and moved on to other activities. This leaves the illusion that emotion-based people have won. This can be a bitter pill for fact- based practitioners and it takes Character to deal with such frustration. For my part, I believe that this is the true purpose for MA training. I can teach a person to shoot a rifle well in an afternoon. However, teaching a person to continue to fight, even when they have run out of ammo, is what I believe the true essence of KMA is about. It is an ability that takes place in the Mind and not in the muscle fibres, the the emotion-based folks will never understand this. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 09:51:07 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Question_of_Support?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear John: ".....Because of your chosen attitude toward me, I will no longer respond to anything you write to me personally or on the Internet, but I will keep records of it. Since we will both be in Seoul in early August, I invite you to sit down with myself, Master Lee, Whan-jae (Secretary General of the KHF), Master Bae, Sung-book (Director of the KHF), Master Choi, Suk-hwan, or whoever you want at their convenience. I will show them the insults, threats, lies and unprofessional attitude you have expressed in your emails and you can explain to them why you have conducted yourself in such a manner........" It is not my intention to impose myself in your current organizational troubles, and please know that you have my every sympathy for the ugliness and irrational things that have gone on. For my part I am not a member of your organization (KHF) and probably have little place in mentioning my experiences. However, in mentioning your intention to sit down with leadership in the coming months I am wondering if there is a place for documentation of similar abuses in your presentation. As you may be aware I and several others have experienced similar abuse but are not well-placed to approach KHF leadership with our material. I am wondering if there is a venue by which we can submitt our stories (with documentation) in order to support whatever effort are being made to restore the integrity of the organization? Thank you in advance, and know that I am excepting of your decision not to use such material should that be your decision. If at all possible it would be a service to me for you to communicate with me here on the DD. It is my belief that too much damage has already been done by covert communications and I think others may be encouraged to tell their stories should they see the open manner with which things are handled. I have also given some consideration to contacting another Net (of Rays' acquaintance) which has had a history of conflict with the Florida organization. Perhaps you might consider incoproating their documentation as well. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:11:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ITF Split (Dave Steffen) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>I have heard that some who remained with the General considered Master Choi's election to be unconstitutional. On what basis they claim that, I don't know. A more commonly expressed sentiment is that Master Choi's election was nonsensical; how do you vote the founder of the art out of office? There is a larger issue here, conserning some fundamental conflicts between democratic processes and the way that martial arts traditionally work.<< I agree with you regarding the confluicts between democracy and the traditional way things in a MA are run. There have been many threads in the Dojang over the years about this, IIRC (posted by Bruce Sims, I believe). But as for the question of how can one vote the founder out of office, it's my understanding that General Choi was planning on retiring in a few years and wanted Master Choi for the job. Also, Master Choi refused to run against his father until the General said he would only serve a couple of years. >>It is true that things were (are?) happening between the ITF and WTF, and that many people (everyone?) believed that the General was the only one who could get that to happen from the ITF side.<< >From what I have seen on the ITF website headed by Chang UNg there are in fact meetings between him and Kim Un Young going on. Not sure what the upshot will be, but this certainly seems a promising sign. As for the General being the only person able to see a merger happen, well I am not too sure about that. From what I have seen (not much, addmitedly) it seemed like the General was not going to be able to do much in this direction. Especially since there was a posted note from the WTF Secretary General on the old ITF web site saying there were no talks about a merger at that point in time. Again, just my opinion. >>Personally, I think thnk this is a good reason to support the the General but a bad reason to ignore Master Choi's election.<< Too true. Maybe it would've been better if Chang Ung had been appointed to the ITF's Merger Committee and/or made a VP. Oh, well... >>One could imagine a lot of scenarios under which things could have worked out amicably, but alas, they didn't.<< Again, too true. This is just my own opinion so take it for what it's worth. The ITF has great technique and some absolutely awesome technicians. The members deserve better than what's happening. But, given human nature I guess we shouldn't be surprised with how things turned out. It's a bummer, though! >>BTW, merging the ITF and WTF was one of the General's dreams. Personally, I suspect that part of the reason the General wanted Chang Ung to succeed him was that, as a North Korean, Mr. Ung would have a greater chance of doing this.<< Probably so, given the ROK's willingness to make overtures towards the DPRK in recent years. >>However, GM Hwang told me several years before the split that the North Koreans had offered to give the ITF a lot of money - to, essentially, sponsor the ITF in much the same way that the South Korean government sponsors the WTF - and that the General had turned them down, because he didn't want the North Koreans to have undue influence. So, I suspect that there was agreement bewteen the various high ranking people that North Korean influence should be avoided.<< This is very interesting. In his memoirs the General talks about the ITF receiving (I think) $600,000 a year from the DPRK. Not too much to run an international organization, but then again during the 1980's the ITF were in tight financial straits from what I have heard. I'm glad more money was turned down, however a half million dollars is nothing to sneeze at. >>Now: yes, the General wanted a North Korean government member to be President after he died; GMs Rhee and Hwang supported this, and we now have Mr. Ung as President. General Choi made several statements to the effect that he thought Mr. Ung was the right guy for the job, and that Mr. Ung's position with the Norht Korean government would not mean the North Koreans would have an undue influence over the ITF. If Mr. Ung is the ethical person the General said he is - and I have no reason to believe otherwise - this would indeed be the case. But you can't blame people for wondering. ;-)<< No indeed, especially if they happen to be an employee of the DPRK government. >>We are indeed part of KATU, we joined in 1993. I, too, have a tremendous amount of respect for GM Hwang; he has taught us incredible things.<< Personally, I feel very fortunate to have been able to attend a couple of seminars with GM Hwang. He is truly an awesome martial artist. >>A lot of people have left KATU for Master Choi; I know that Mr. Karstadt in Phoenix did so, and that GM Hwang was very upset by this. Our group here in Colorado lost one instructor (Mr. Mike Wheeler) and his group of small schools; Mr. Wheeler is a federal officer, and his membership in an organization headed by a North Korean did not go over well with him or his superiors. My instructor, Mr. Roberto Roena, is a Denver County Sherriff; he has also received a lot of peer pressure about the situation. My position is uncertain; personally, I'm willing to take GM Hwang's word for Mr. Ung's integrity, and am willing to believe that being a part of KATU does not mean I'm supporting North Korea (a country that my country has some serious issues with). However, I've just taken a job that will require a DoD security clearance, and I'm not sure what impact Mr. Ung's leadership will have on this. I hate to say it, but it may be the case that our careers require us to change affiliations.<< I'm sorry for the position you and your instructor are in. This may become more prominant in the US, but who knows? Frankly, I wish politics didn't exist in the MA's, but any time there's two people in a room you have politics. My best wishes to you in the future and I hope things work out for the best. >>Master Choi really pissed off GMs Hwang and Rhee by the way he handled his election. I don't see much possibility of reconciliation there.<< That's very unfortunate. >>The "Vienna ITF" is somewhere in the middle. Under McLelland, I don't think any reconcillitation was possible; but now that they're under new leadership, things are possible. Not having any communication from their camp, I have no idea which way they would lean.<< Ditto for me. It seems to me that the Vienna group's Secretary General, Tom MacCallum, isn't too fond of Master Choi or Chang Ung. How much influence this will have is anybody's guess. >>I'm sure that GM Seriff will never unite with any of the other groups. His loyalty was to General Choi, and now that the General is gone, I don't think he has any reason to join other organizations. It will be very interesting to see what happens to the USTF when he retires.<< I have to agree with you on this one. I can't see GM Sereff joining up with Chang Ung, and from what I have heard he won't follow Master Choi. Best bet is the Vienna group, but I imagine the USTF will remain independent for now. >>I agree. I think some upheaval in the wake of the General's death was inevitable, but it's very dissapointing that it's been this bad.<< I couldn't agree more. And with the internet things become very public, very fast. >>For years, I've been quoting the General in my email sig: "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". It's bitterly ironic that the same could be now said of everyone in the ITF, and that the "ancestor" under criticism is the General himself.<< Hoo boy. IMO that's a very sharp insight. No one's perfect, of course, but it's disappointing that things weren't more in order before the General passed on. >>My personal, educated guess, about all this is that a lot of people were very unhappy with the General's leadership of the ITF; but they bitterly disagreed about what the proper solution was. Master Choi's solution was (I suspect) very acceptable to many western people, but completely unacceptable to those from eastern cultures. I suspect that reconciliation will have to wait until many of those involved with all of this have left power. :-(<< That is too bad. I do want to thank you for answering my questions the way you did: professional, not argumentative, etc. Signs that MA training is time well spent, IMHO. Taekwon, Chris PS As a member of the ITF I hope to be able to meet you some time! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11 End of The_Dojang Digest