Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 18:56:02 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #326 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Ox Jaw in Korean (Yarchak, Mary Kay) 2. PAWMA (DrgnSlyr5@aol.com) 3. New Hapkido-TKD Dojang in Florida (michael tomlinson) 4. Re: thumbs, fingers, etc... (Jye nigma) 5. RE: School in Lake Charles (Emactkd@aol.com) 6. There are others... (Chosondo@aol.com) 7. Re: RE: Dragon, Phoenix and Ox fist (Jye nigma) 8. Re: Shreveport/Bossier (ViolinsAce23@aol.com) 9. From Another Group....History (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Yarchak, Mary Kay" To: 'Dojang Digest' Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 18:20:28 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ox Jaw in Korean Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We use the top-of-wrist strike in C.S. Kim's TSD. We call it "sohn mok dong". "Sohn mok" is wrist is Korean. I'm not sure about the literal translation of "dong". MK --__--__-- Message: 2 From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 18:31:43 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] PAWMA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If any DD members are attending PAWMA this weekend, please look me up. I'll be teaching the Hapkido Classes and would enjoy the chance to meet you. Sharon Tkach --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 00:13:20 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] New Hapkido-TKD Dojang in Florida Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm happy to announce that one of my Martial Arts friends Jeff Miller is opening up a new Martial Arts School next week on August 4th. Jeff is an ex law enforcement officer and director of security at the largest resort in Daytona Beach. The Dojang is called Miller Martial Arts and is located in Ormond Beach Florida on U.S. 1, which is a northern suburb of Daytona Beach. The school is HUGE and is covered with Zebra combo mats,, it has a complete surround system, educational rooms to watch film and study the arts, and plenty of training gadgets of every conceivable shape and use. Jeff Miller teaches Olympic style TKD and is VERY good at what he does, also I will be teaching Hapkido on Tuesday and Thursday nights and have free reign to plan and teach whatever I please. If anyone happens to be in the vicinity and wants to work out or just come by and chew the fat you are more than welcome... for more information on the school and or programs feel free to contact me personally... thanks Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 18:15:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] thumbs, fingers, etc... To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net One thing everyone should understand is proper conditioning with any strike. Simply doing push ups on one's knuckles isn't enough. The surfaces of each and every striking site needs to be conditioned. If proper coniditoning is not tught at your schools I would suggest seeking out a competent teacher in that area to avoid injury...both immediate and long term. Jye --- Hapkido Self Defense Center wrote: > About once a year, I break with a thumb during > public demonstrations. I make > sure that my thumb it is straight and at a complete > right angle to my hand > and that my arm is properly aligned. Then I make > sure my arm is properly > aligned and that I strike perfectly perpendicular to > the board. We use 1x12 > #2 pine boards cut into 10" lengths straight from > home depot. I only do this > on rare occasions. I also perform a break using my > fingers in a straight > line, being careful not to bend any or misalign my > arm. Once again, I only > do this on rare occasions during demonstrations. Why > occasionally? It would > be very easy for me to break something. I do not > advocate using one knuckle > or digit while striking. After all, if the object > you are hitting is harder > than you are, you will loose. So why do I do it? It > is nice for a demo. Have > I, or will I ever use a finger or knuckle outside of > the dojang? Not a > chance. I prefer a nice ki strike to even a full > two-knuckle fist strike. > BTW, I successfully went through 3 concrete blocks > with a ki strike (8x16x2) > without spacers at the demo a few weeks ago. A new > personal best. > > Several weeks ago, during a demo (same one I just > mentioned), one of my > students broke his hand because he hit two boards > with his second knuckle > instead of his first two knuckles. He is on the swim > team at the University > of Cincinnati and in great shape. It was a clean > break (his hand, not the > boards). He had two pins put in it. It was something > he had done before, but > he was not 100% focused and the boards won. Be > careful when considering the > use and practice of striking with your knuckle or > fingers. The chances are > good that you will loose if the object you are > striking is harder than the > object hitting it. > Jere R. Hilland www.hapkidoselfdefense.com > > PS. Master Hodder: Hope you are doing better. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1400 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 21:23:43 -0400 From: Emactkd@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: School in Lake Charles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have to echo Mr. Payne, I have known Grandmaster Choi in Lake Charles for twenty years. He is the real deal. Rick Foley --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 21:25:25 -0400 From: Chosondo@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] There are others... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ladies and gentlemen, not that I do not agree with to two recommendation below, but there are others who are just as accomplished and reputable such as GM Michael DeAlba of Modern FaRang MuSool, GM Serge Baubil of the International Hoshinkido Hapkido Federation, GM James Garrison of Hapkido Ju Sool Kwan and WOMAF, and shamefully, myself of the International Chosondo Federation. Let's not be biased. Give folks all of the info when it's requested and let them choose for themselves. Moreover, I dare say that it is virtually impossible to have an organization that is fairly successful to be completely free of politics. Let's not kid ourselves. If weren't for the so called "politics" that most apparently dispise, most of us would not be where we are today.BTW, what does politics really mean? This defination seems to be elusive... Thank you for indulging me. Ian A. Cyrus, Headmaster ICF In a message dated 7/30/2003 5:18:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > May I humbly recommend our association > > National Korean Martial Arts Association > Grand Master Rudy Timmerman > www.nkmaa.ca > > or our good friend > > Grand Master J.R. West > United States Korean Martial Arts Federation > www.hapkido.com > > Kat Kelly --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 19:09:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Dragon, Phoenix and Ox fist To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net There are even more animal fist depending on the system of kung fu. Snake being my favorite style. Jye --- "S. H. WEE" wrote: > Hi Jye, > > You are right, Dragon fist is the one with with > protruding middle finger > knuckle and index finger wrapped on-top of the > thumb. Phoenix fist is the > pointing finger knuckle and the Ox-horn fist is the > one with thumb knuckle > sticking out. There are also Leopard fist, > Crane-beak, Crane-wing, Snake and > other assortment of animal fists. > > Regards, > > S. H. Wee > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:16:24 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Jye nigma > > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re:_Terminology??_ > > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > > > Hi Bruce Dragon fist is the fist made by sticking > out > > the middle finger knuckle, Pheonix eye fist is the > > pointing finger knuckle, and if I'm not mistaken > the > > fist with the thumb knuckle sticking out is ox > fist or > > something like that. > > > > Jye > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1400 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 22:39:43 -0400 From: ViolinsAce23@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Shreveport/Bossier Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'd like to express my gratitude for the replies I have received concerning a Taekwondo school. However, I am afraid I wasn't clear on a few things. My sister and I are under Kukkiwon, and we practice the Taeguk set of forms/poomses. Though we are open to trying new types of Taekwondo and new styles of martial arts, it would be very difficult to start over concerning forms, at least for my sister. Once again, I thank you for your help. C.M. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 19:38:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] From Another Group....History Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This article is one of the most detail account of Korean arts and relationship with Japanese and Chinese arts that I've come across. Hanmudoist reading this article will identify with some of the arts and techniques mentioned,and that Hanmudo techs are closer with historical Muye than compared to Hapkido ,which is closer to Japanese Aikijujitsu except for the kicking part.Hence ,historically,techniques found in Hanmudo has history earlier than those in Hapkido.In the article below, Song Bae (or Sun Bi ) is mentioned . Hanmudo is based on SunBi of Paekche period. So when people start to ask on difference between Hapkido and Hanmudo, this is a good point to highlight. Mooyae This term refers to korean martial arts as a whole. In comparison with China or Japan we have not so much actual historical information about Korea. From classical treatises only one remain up to our days - "Mooyae dobo tongji" ("Illustrated review of martial arts"), created relatively late, at 1789. Many-sided negative influence was made by the tradition of political culture and ideology. Japanese occupation of 1910-1945, when colonizers pursued the policy of violent assimilation and supressed all displays of real korean culture, completely put an end for a number of traditional martial arts of Korea. A big difficulty for revealing the real situation - propaganda on the both sides of 38 parallel. In the framework of this campaign many official historians prove that martial arts of Korea have long historical tradition, at least equal to chinese one. But not all the facts they used can be accepted as arguments for this conception. Of course, it is possible to discover "typical stances of korean martial arts" in threatening positions and gestures of spirit-keeper figures in front of gates of buddhist temples, but we can see such figures not only in Korea, there exist in other countries of region also. There exist fighting scenes on ancient frescos, but when one man hit a nose of another's man it doesn't mean that he uses some movement from martial art. One ancient fresco with a man in position like "horse-sitting position" can be found as in all the books on korean martial arts, as in the books on ethnography, where it is interpreted as ... figure of dancing or flying shaman. Tradition of martial arts in Korea begin from the period of three kingdoms (Koguryo, Paekche and Silla). Each of them had its own system of fighting. For example, Koguryo, situated on the north part of peninsula and on the part of Manzhuria, had a system called songbae. Koguryo, grew and streightened in struggle against China, had strong and well-prepared army. In Paekche martial arts were known as soobahk (it was written by the same hyerogliphes as chinese martial art shoubo). The most interesting kingdom is Silla, famous by its military-religious institute of hwarang ("flower youth"). Young men, selected from noble families when they were 14-15 years old, in time of peace studied martial arts, sang songs with "magic power", studied the art of ruling the kingdom, in the time of war they fought in the first lines and were the most prepared military troops, there are many records in korean chronicles about their exploits. Hwarang's training was not limited by meditation, poetry, music and dancing, but also included horseback riding, fencing, archery and soobahk. The purpose of this complex preparing was training of perfect, harmonicly developed personality. In the struggle among three kingdoms Silla with the help of Tang's China became an unitor. At 668 Korea became an united country, closely related with neighbouring China. Kwonbop (korean hand-to-hand combat) was enriched by chinese tradition, and names of some branches - for example tangsoodo ("hand of Tang dynasty") - witness it. Suh Inhyuk, one of the most serious researchers of korean martial arts, points that approximaetely from this time it is possible to distinguish three main branches in korean martial arts - not by the origin (pure korean or korean-chinese) but on the base of distinguished features: Sado moosul ("private" or "folk" martial arts) - styles with domination of sport-competitional aspect, which make them close to europian sport wrestling. Pulsa moosul ("buddhist's martial arts"), practised in buddhist's temples and dedicated for moral self-improvement, spiritual-physical development and developing human's abilities. Kunjoon moosul ("court martial arts"), used as system of military preparing or system for training elite troops with accent on applying, using weapons etc. After 976, when United Silla was changed by Koryo kingdom, many branches of martial arts were formed as schools and styles. Some of them, for example kannyok or subaekchigi, are unknown now. But others - taekkyon, charyok, soobahk, yusul (Korean term for Jujitsu) or orenkwon - were formed at this time. The most original and "most korean" from them is taekkyon. At least, this name is written by korean alphabet only, when others are written by chinese hyerogliphes. Taekkyuon don't have various stances, but there are very developed kicking techniques with various footboards and sweeps. Kicks more high than chest level were absent, so most of them were circular, not straight. The main purpose of fighting was to throw opponent down, not to injure him. Hand techniques - circular movements without using fists. Hands are used for palm pushes to the face and throat, for grasping opponent's arm or leg, which allow to kick him. Main weapon is leg, so main techniques - leg's jams, footboards, footclings, sweeps. Training was hard: students kicked stones, trees, jumped over thorny bushs, jumped after pushing off the tree. Soobahk in Silla-Koryo was changed into sole style, where, unlike taekkyon, kick were used above the waist, also existed punches and elbow strikes. The most popular stance was position with hands together in front of the chest like for prayer. All main hand strikes were executed from this stance. Among korean mountainous anchorites ("sonying") there was yusul ("soft art")(Korean Jujitsu), based on throws, joint locks, catches, point strikes to vulnerable areas. One of the most known fighting system, created by sonyings is charyok ("borrowed force"). Stepping in charyok is very simple, among hand striking positions there exist attack by thumb and middle finger stretched like tongs, or two-fists strike with pinching skin by fists. Counter-attacks are based on either catching attacking limb from below and pulling it, or pressing attacking limb by own hand with following catch. Most such methods are intended for fighter with well-prepared body, for very strong and adroit man. For example, method for parring straight punch is the next: attacked arm is catched by own elbow bend and then broke. Strikes are used against that part of body which has minimal thickness of muscles. Throws are based on pain, not on force. Like in taekkyon, in charyok movements are composed in such a way that arms and legs help to each other. Unlike taekkyon, charyok has more head strikes, knee strikes, shoulder strikes, elbow strikes. There exist kicks from sitting position, strikes in nerve centres, including toe strikes. Charyok also has methods of defence against different animals - wolf, bull, bear, tiger. King's court had another stlyes, more close to chinese. But at the end of Koryo dynasty the level of soldier's preparing became very low, and soldiers practiced only very simple collections of methods, called taegyon. High level of preparing had only personal troops of big feudal lords, like "sambyolcho" - "three special armies" of Choi family (it was the strongest family in the country at the end of Koryo dynasty, they established a system similar to shogunat in Japan). This troops, shouldered main resistance against mongols, studied so-called oryonkwon ("fist of five kinds"), included pogakwon ("fist of cannon strike"), menhogwon ("fist of furious tiger"), hugwon ("fist of monkey"), hakkwon ("fist of crane") and chilsonkwon ("fist of seven stars"). Mongolian influence in Korea appeared in different fields, including martial arts. Mongols brought ssirym (in ancient version it can be read as ssilnyom) - belt wrestling, where strikes are forbidden, allowed only throws with using body, hips, arms and legs. Weight of wrestlers is significant in ssirym, like in japanese sumo. At 1392 Li dynasty (1392-1910) came to power in Korea. Its founder - general Li Songe - was famous due to his activity in wars against japanese pirates, zhurzhen's barbarians and chinese so-called "armies of red heads". He came to power as head of his own army and leaned on new-confucianism, which became state religion instead of buddhism. At the end of XVI century in Korea, like in neighbourinf China, traditions of martial arts were formed yet. At this time there were known about 20 branches of martial arts. Interest to martial arts was excited by Yimdin War (1592-1598). Korea was attacked by japanese army, best army of that time Far East. Regular army of Korea was crushed very quickly, after six month japanese occupied almost whole country. Peoples and partisan groups "Iybyon" ("Army of justice") grew for struggle against agressors. Long war was won by koreans due to courage of "Iybyon" groups, skilful actions of korean fleet, headed by admiral Li Sunsin, national hero of Korea, and chinese troops, helped to Korea. Chinese instructors made a big comtribution to the tradition of korean martial arts. For example, they carried shaolin style, which gradually changed to modern sorimkwon. At the same time new buddhist styles appeared. One of them is hyoldo. It leans on medicine and has only throws and immobilisations based on the control of biologically active points. Another buddhist style - pulmudo - is more various, very similar to chinese styles, has "soft" hand techniques. Palm is open, moves on circle, forms are performed slowly. At XVI century in north-west provinces of Korea very interesting style appeared. It based on using elbows, shoulders and head. Most known was using the plait (at that time - obligatory part of male hair-cut) like lash. At the end of plait sharp comb or metal weight was tied. This style is known as pakchigi. This style became popular in all the region, including China. After Yimdin War generals tried to teach sodiers using the japanese sword, because of similarity japanese and korean swords. Ken-jutsu methods grafted in Korea. Rasing of interest to martial atrs, influenced by Yimdin War, was changed to stagnation. Only advanced representatives of korean culture still propaganded an idea of revival of martial arts. It was expressed by writing treatises, which fixed the most effective techniques as sets. First of them was "Mooyae chebo", created in 1599, which included sets of pole techniques, used by buddhist monks in Korea, sword and shield techniques, using "broom of wolf's tail", long spear, trident, long-blade sword. Second treatise - "Mooyae singbo" - was created about fifty years after the manzhu invasion, and included barehand combat, exercises with japanese and korean swords, using spear, military flail and different blades with long shaft. At the end of XVIII century remarkable korean philosopher and statesman Li Dongmu began to create a treatise with full collection of knowledge about martial arts. This treatise, created at 1789-1790, had title "Mooyae dobo tonji" and included 18 techniques from two previous treatises, four sets for horsemen (with double sword, spear, flail and big sword), art of horseback acrobaticks and a game similar to horse polo. Techniques, collected in "Mooyae dobo tonji", are various, but looks very eclectic. For example, in using shield and swird it is possible to observe the influence of chinese strategist Qi Jiguang< filtered through the korean system of fighting. Chinese influence also can be seen in using trident, halberd, long spear. Unfortunately, 2-men sets are for flail and pole only, and contain basic techniques. Barehand combat, described in "Mooyae dobo tonji", is considered as chinese by origin. Movements of one-man set from treatise many authors interpret as taijiquan movements. 2-men set looks like "push hands" from taijiquan. There are a few kicks in this set, they are used on low-level only. But even "Mooyae dobo tonji" was a work of group of enthusiasts, when mass despised martial arts. Short-time splashes of interest "from above" touched its military variants only. Folk styles, like soobahk or taekkyon, were supressed from the beginning of Li dynasty. In the condition of raising stagnation of korean society tradition of korean martial arts was emasculated and forgot. In 1945 Korea was liberated from japanese occupation. Korean martial arts left the underground and it turned out that although some techniques were kept, whole spiritual-philosophical tradition was lost. Additionally, many koreans, who returned from Japan, began to teach martial arts. There were many organisations and instructors, but only few of them seriously knew the history of their schools and could explain the real tradition. Most of them taught techniques only. After the Korean War (1950-53) Korea has various schools of martial arts. These arts had different names^ tesudo, soobahk, soobahk-do, kwonbop, tegyon, tangsoodo, taekwonbop and so on. Most of them were very close to soobahk, or were an adapted version of karate. Before 1960s goverment didn't intervened in its activity. Turning-point occured when president Pak Chongni came to power. His regime was as supressive as Nothern Korea's one. At this period the idea appeared: martial arts must serve to regime, it is necessary to create the united martial art, controlled by goverment. Independent branches could be a cover for opposition movements. In 1964 korean goverment tried to unify all schools into the assotiation of united martial art, which was named "tesudo". But this idea failed, because many masters thought that it can be followed by decreasing the prestige of their schools. But at the next year the unified style was created. The main role in its creation played general Choi Honghi, studied taekkyon and had a black belt in karate. After long discussion new art was named as taekwondo (many people more liked the name "soobahk"), because this word means "way of fist and leg", and you can understand as "taekwondo" all you want from korean martial arts. At 1972 general Choi had to emigrated in Canada. As head of International Taekwondo Federation (ITF) he removed the center of its activity in Toronto (now ITF headquorters is placed in Wiena), but most schools and instructors didn't support him and remain loyal to Seoul's authorities, which organized World Taekwondo Federation (WTF). Taekwondo was created like soviet sambo or chinese contemporary wushu - as a system without spiritual contents, but simplified and not dangerous for students. In addition taekwondo is supported by goverment. Another martial arts in Southern Korea aere supressed from time to time, some non-unified styles (like tangsoodo) became considered as taekwondo's branches. It was very hard to teach such ctyles outside Korea. For example, Hwang Ki, head of moodukkwan school, during long time could not receive a permission for this. At the same time history of taekwondo began created. Now oficcial point of view is that all history of martial arts in Korea is history of taekwondo and taekwondo only. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest