Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:33:04 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #329 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Possible Visit (L. Veuleman) 2. Day of Infamy (SEXTONR003@hawaii.rr.com) 3. Mang Chi Ki (Rudy Timmerman) 4. RE: Son Mok Dong (Yarchak, Mary Kay) 5. Differences (Rudy Timmerman) 6. A day of infamy (Rudy Timmerman) 7. Conditioning (Rudy Timmerman) 8. Re: Ki Strike (Jye nigma) 9. Re: thumbs, fingers, etc... (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:28:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "L. Veuleman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Possible Visit Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jere, Sorry to hear about your longtime friend. My father has gone through alot of this, and will probably be doing it again due to his diet and way he treats his body. On lighter subject, we are about 50 minutes from shreveport. I would love to have you come down and hang out with us. We have a small 10 by 10 mat perfect for JereThrows, and some of us are 'wood conditioned'. My group would really get into some of that PVC cane stuff, (or anything else you have, not being picky!!) I know we enjoyed it in Jackson. Hope you can make it down, but also hope your friend finds better health. YITMA Charlie Veuleman <> ************** L. Charles Veuleman - http://www.bluewavekarate.com Natchitoches Karate Institute - Chittim Jordan Tae Kwon Do 318-356-7727 Natchitoches Kustom Inks - Quality Screen Printing 318-332-1676 204 Rapides Drive Natchitoches, LA 71457 --__--__-- Message: 2 From: To: Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:14:43 -1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Day of Infamy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net And small animals, including gophers, once again head for the hills! Happy Birthday! <> Randall Sexton www.LaughingHara.com www.SextonsHapkido.com www.AikiTouch.us --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:40:34 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Mang Chi Ki Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Jason: Please call me Rudy. I think it is the acceptable way of communicating on the DD. Regarding the Mang Chi Ki fist configuration, I am not sure if this is the same as Isshin Ryu. There are very few Isshin Ryu practitioners around this area, and I have never researched their style... too busy with Korean arts:) Perhaps there are other, more qualified, people who can answer your question. The fist in question is made by placing the bottom of the thumb against the index finger middle knuckle and compressing the fingers. This really tightens up the edge of the hand. After many years of using this method of punching, I have yet to sprain the thumb. As others have pointed out, we advocate conditioning the striking areas of both hands and feet where possible. Sorry I could not help more. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Yarchak, Mary Kay" To: 'Dojang Digest' Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:57:41 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Son Mok Dong Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Re: translation of "dong", thanks Bert! So, instead of "ox jaw" we have "son mok dong" which translates to something like "wrist technique". Jeez, that's as exciting as, what was it Charlie? a one knuckle punch? Those kung fu guys sure know how to name things. MK --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:17:05 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Differences Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dakin writes: > Rudy, I know that your NKMAA and Serge's IHHF both grew > from the teachings of GM In-Seok Pak, so could you tell us how the two > styles differ? Hello Dakin: I believe GM Baubil trained in Bum Moo HKD. I have never run across him in any of GM Pak's classes in all the years I trained with GM Pak. Serge is a very good man, and (as Ian pointed out) I agree that he and others should have been mentioned; however, I do believe there was no political reason for neglecting to do this on the part of our fellow DDers. Since I have not actually trained with GM Baubil, I cannot be sure how our two arts differ. I have met him at social gatherings, and I sense he is a legitimate martial artist. I have also had one of my Instructors work with him at the Ottawa mega seminar John Therien runs, and my student had good things to say about GM Baubil. I was working a different ring, so I still did not get to see him:) It is not for lack of trying though. To elaborate on Ian's post: The folks who recommended JR and myself simply did so because they have been on the mat with us. I believe it is quite acceptable for a student or member to be proud of his or her mentors or Instructors, and to point their satisfaction out to others is a normal reaction. I believe we call that word of mouth advertising, and I think it is one of the very best methods of advertising one can get. I for one am proud of the fact my students recommended JR and myself. Unsolicited cudos means we must be doing something right:) I also highly recommend JRs seminars, because I have seen what he does and I like what I see. I have not had that good fortune with others, and therefore I make no mention. This is not a political thing, it is simply because I don't recommend anyone I am not familiar with. Martial art politics to me are actually quite simple, and Bruce did a good job of explaining it. To me, if a person is moved up or held back because of personal feelings or association policies that are not the same for all, I call that politics. If your position within an organization is the result of discoloring your nose (rather than hard work to make the org better), I call that politics too. I guess politics can mean different things to folks, and that's OK too. I think a suitable standard may be on how your actions are measured by your peers over the long run, as well as how good you feel about yourself. IMHO, how good you feel about yourself can make you comfortable enough to recommend your own students to seek more knowledge, and I hope I'll always be comfortable enough with myself to prompt my students to be better than I was on my best day. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:22:17 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] A day of infamy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray writes: > August 1, a day which will live in infamy. > > Gm JR West was born. And the world was never the same again...:) It must have been a good month, my BD is on the 17th:) Happy Birthday JR! Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:26:16 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Conditioning Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jere writes: > I am fortunate to not have gone through this > type of conditioning. Many of my friends were not so lucky and are > having > hand problems to this day. Jere makes a very good point, and I hope all young martial artists take heed. I am of the old school, and I did some serious conditioning in the old days that came back to haunt me later. Today, conditioning in my school is not the same as it used to be; however, we still train the striking areas, albeit in a much more sensible manner. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 15:46:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Ki Strike To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ki is internal energy. Lead by the mind, harnessed by the breath, and developed by deep breathing/body movement exercises. My knowledge of ki comes from chinese studies where it is called chi. It takes a while to understand the concept of chi but much longer to develope it, and long to actually move it. The ancients say that you get chi from air and water...but it is my belief that you can get it from food also. Dead chi or old chi, and live chi or new chi....Old or dead chi will come from dead animals we consume, live or new chi comes from plant life. If you are seeking chi training you should seek out a Competent instructor. As far as the palm strikes....give me a second I'm going to paste some info I wrote about hand conditioning from another group here... Jye --- Dave Weller wrote: > Forgive my ignorance, but Master Jere R. Hilland > mentioned a "ki" strike in a recent post. I have > seen this term used in this forum before and am > wondering what, exactly, a "ki" strike is. I also > am interested in the palm strikes for breaking that > GM Timmerman (as well as others) have spoken about. > If this is old material and has been hashed over a > million times, I'm sorry, I may have been dozing > that day. > > thanks very much, > > Dave Weller > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1400 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:26:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] thumbs, fingers, etc... To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ok here is something I wrote in another group about conditioning....this will answer your question and then some....long post: "I would have to agree yet disagree with a couple of points. First, let's look at conditioning and what it means/does and where it goes beyond exercises.... Condition- A state of readiness or physical fitness Conditioned- 1)To render fit for work or use 2)Psychology: To cause an organism to respond in a specific manner to a conditioned stimulus in the absence of an unconditioned stimulus. Well out of all 3 I like the psychology definition, I'll tell you why and how it applies to this topic. So we now see that to condition is to make fit for work or use. Ok now in some training, or work out our bodies become naturally conditioned, for instance, ever shake the hands of someone who works on heavy machinery or works on the railroad pounding stakes into the ground? If not, the difference is in the density of their hands. Their hands have naturally reinforced themselves for protection. We actually do the same thing when we condition our bodies, we prepare them for a specific task. Now there are many ways to condition the body internally and externally: Internally- A swimmer or diver who dives without an oxygen tank can condition their bodies to be able to hold their breath for long periods of time. A long distance runner can condition their body for that task, and then you have people in our catergory (martial arts) that may want to condition our bodies EXTERNALLY for various reasons: maybe you condition your body to be hard so you're able to withstand a good strike, or maybe you want to condition your body to be very limber to help you in escaping holds. In the martial arts you have many schools with different approaches to externally conditioning the body, some believe in striking hard objects to develop caluoses and some believe in conditioning the skin, bones and muscles along with liniments to prevent disfigurment, and starting out on soft objects first then working up to hard. Some believe in conditioning the mind first, other just jump straight to it. You also have some who teach that just by exercising alone, the body is already conditioned. I watched a show about an okinawan teacher who conditioned his hands by striking hardwood, his shins by striking bamboo. My experience is in conditioning the body but with the aide of liniments and herbs, and heat treatments using Shaolin/snake fist methods, as well as native american/African teachings. Why condition? Well the body naturally conditions itself when under a certain type/amount of stress to protect itself. It's believed that by exercising alone you have properly conditioned yourself, or that by training in the martial arts alone (without conditioning exercises) that your body has become conditioned already, in a sense that is correct. By just doing exercises the body has become somewhat conditioned, it has become stronger in the areas that were exercised. But if you're in a contact sport then the body needs further conditioning, it needs to be able to deliver/receive strikes and blocks, as well as being strong. Strength alone wont help break concrete slabs, or boards, especially without spacers! The hand or foot delivering the blow needs to be able to handle the impact. Knuckle push ups wont cut it because that does NOT prepare the knuckles or hand for a strong inpact. If it did then for those who do push ups on their hands, they'd be ready to SMACK a brick and break it. Conditioning a target area PREPARES that area for impact whether it's delivering or receiving. The internal/external structure of the hand MUST be fully equiped to withstand the force brought on in a strike or a block, this can only be acheived by TRULY conditioning the hand by striking hard objects (progressively) and by performing strengthening exercises. If one does 2500 crunches a day, yes their ab muscles will be very strong, but this does not mean they can take a hit from Mike Tyson. It just means they have a good chance of no internal damage. Now to be properly conditioned in the abs region to take a hit, one should have good strong abs (exercising) and then they have to be hit in the stomach, a safe method boxers use is the medicine ball. A simple exercise like using the exercise ball teaches you HOW to prepare for receiving a hit, i.e., proper breathing, contracting muscles, etc. Now this prepares you for a fight but even so, there is no better teacher then experience. This is TRUE conditioning (exercising, building up tolerance through impact, allowing the body to reinforce itself, and learning HOW to send or receive blows.)Get a sparring partner and get hit in the abs, that also helps to condition the abs, bottom line they have to receive some external contact soft-hard). Actually, one with poor ab muscles can skip exercising and practice with the medicine ball and a sparring partner and will be able to take a good shot, because the body works with what it haves. Now to the meat and potatoes.... Conditioning, blocking, striking surfaces. This is probably where Sensei Rick doesn't like it. I believe that this conditioning is effective, useful, and wont harm you in the long run-AS LONG AS YOU HAVE A COMPETENT TEACHER TO INSTRUCT YOU! So by doing push ups alone your hands are NOT fully conditioned, because you have your body weight on your fist on a hard ground, the only thing happening is your skin may get tough. There is no impact that would require your hands or fist to reinforce themselves. So on to REAL conditioning... First things first, we need to condition our hands, well the first noticable thing we see is our skin. Can't punch stuff and have your skin split right? So you first apply liniments to the skin to protect the skin and muscles. Now you prepare the skin with various materials such as sand as in snake boxing. then you move on to slightly hard materials like dirt on to dried beans on to small pebbles on to rocks on to buckshot, etc. So the conditioning I used for an example is a progressive process that doesn't happen over night and doesn't damage the hand. Worse case scenario, a cut here and there, but no structural damage. Each material starting from soft to hard, allows the skin, muscles, ligaments, and bones to condition themselves, preping them for the next material. You usually see damage when someone tries to start on hard materials,.ie., makiwara (sp?) board. So this is wear I agree and disagree with Sensei Rick, Yes conditioning done on hard surfaces RIGHT AWAY (if you've never done real conditioning) is dangerous and destructive down the road, but conditioning using a progessive system is not destructive down the road. Now I like the psychology definition of conditioned because when we condition our bodies we are indeed training them to react to a stimulus in a certain way, even if the stimulus is not present. So imagine, something falling and hitting you in the stomach you will be conditioned mentally as well as physically to receive that impact and your functions will be automatic. For a martial artist we want to automatically breath out, contract the abs, and release pressure when we are hit. So that definition does apply to us. cool huh? I think external conditioning is damaging only when it is being done by an non-knowledgeable teacher or individual, or when done by children (because their bones are still developing). Now eliminate those variables, and input a competent teacher, of age pupil and the necessary materials and you have yourself some good training. Jye" --- Hapkido Self Defense Center wrote: > Jye: please explain how one conditions a knuckle > consisting of a bone > layered by skin. Yes, one can condition the skin, > but that would serve > little purpose as the breaking is done with the bone > of the knuckle not the > skin on the surface of the bone. Conditioning the > surface (or skin) would > not serve much purpose against an object harder than > the bone behind it. In > my early days as a student (early 70's), my teacher > would break his knuckles > by hitting concrete and then continue breaking them > until they were > deformed. In college as a 3rd dan, my second teacher > (also a Korean > national), wanted me to pursue that training > (conditioning as he called it) > as I was older. Fortunately, my education is in > Architecture and my hands > needed to be free of deformities and I was able to > decline participation. We > now know that this kind of training is counter > productive and leads to > serious problems later in life. I am fortunate to > not have gone through this > type of conditioning. Many of my friends were not so > lucky and are having > hand problems to this day. > Jere R. Hilland www.hapkidoselfdefense.com palm or > ki strike advocate :) > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1400 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest