Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:09:02 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #353 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Thoughts on realistuc training vs traditional training. PArt II (Jye nigma) 2. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Thoughts_on_realistuc_training_vs_traditiona l_training.?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 3. simple weapons (Ray Terry) 4. Traditional realistic training (John Kedrowski) 5. The Master Trap (A. Boyd) 6. Re: [The_Dojang] Re:_Thoughts_on_realistuc_training_vs_traditiona l_training. (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:00:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Thoughts on realistuc training vs traditional training. PArt II Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net OK...now let's talk about weapons! How many of use that train with weapons think we can actually defend ourselves with them? The rude awakening is we can't! IF....we don't train realistically with them. Now this doesn't mean let go out start fights and cut someone's arm off. If means that weapons form are just like fight forms where it provides many things (coordination, balance, focus, etc), but LACKS many things as well (practical use, realism, the different feels of hitting other weapons). So by just performing weapons forms doesn't mean we can fight with them. So we must spar with weapons just like we do without them. This will give us the same benefits that sparring hand to hand does. again we must spar realistically with our weapons. Now I there are thousands of weapons we can spar with, but in some instances we'll most likely need to improvise for safety. My weapons of choice are the butterfly swords, and although they aren't sharpened, they could still kick or maim someone. So I'll invest in a good wooden pair. this idea of weapons sparring is great because as with a gathering of martial artists from other systems so will you have other weapons from other systems and you'll learn how to defend against them! How is this practical for the street? Well weapons for the most part are divided into categories: slashing, bashing, throwing, poking, etc. So learn to use a katana for instance, and you can actually kick up a broom handle and use it in the same manner, very possible in the real world. The whole purpose of training with weapons and many many weapons is to be able to use what ever is on the battlefield that resembles what weapon(s) you learned. So in closing (because I'm getting tired).... Traditional training is great, but not only by itself. Traditional arts were created for a specific time, and the need at that time. So it's only natural that it needs to be "upgraded" in some areas. Any thoughts? Jye __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:15:30 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Thoughts_on_realistuc_training_vs_traditiona l_training.?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jye: Whew!! That was quite a post!! And, I don't find fault with any of it. I'm just wondering if what you are saying isn't the same thing that every other dedicated KMA person says. In the end, isn't traditional training the same as realistic training? Is what you are saying that we get attacked in stairwells, and alleyways and vestibules so that is where we should take our training? I don't have a problem with this except that every time this subject comes up nobody seems to know where it stops. Afterall, we don't wear do-bok out on the street so we should actually dress in street clothes. Then again not everybody wears the same street clothes. And nothing gets said about winter clothes, or working out on icey streets. I don't live on a boat but there are hundreds of thousands of world citizens who do. Shouldn't we be incorporating boat techniques into our curriculum? And what about the travelers on jet-liners and trains and buses? Shouldn't we have a bus as part of the dojang for using techniques in those cramped quarters? You also have not said anything about what techniques to practice with suicide bombers or snipers. Should we expand our curriculum to include rating in demolitions? If I think I am reading your post correctly, what I think I am hearing is that you believe that people need to train harder. By this I don't mean do more calisthetics but train with the techniques that they are taught with a more practical or pragmatic eye. I couldn't agree with you more. Where we might differ in our views, though, is that you seem to think that this can be induced by changing the environment and thereby change the practitioners' attitude. I, for my part, think that you change the persons' attitude and it might happen that the environment, of itself, won't actually matter. Try this. Next time you use the toliet consider that you are not safe and comfortable. Or the next time you take a shower, half-way through, with soap in your eyes, there is the outline of an attacker outside the stall. Like they said in the movie, "Pop Quiz, hot shot; what do you do." You don't need fancy tactics and scenerios and exotic drills. What I think is needed is that people stop using KMA as a gymnastic or a dating service and start pretending that someone is actually going to use what they are learning to produce a good end. For me, if I have to have somebody dream up some exotic drills to get me thinking about the practical applications of what I am learning, I have more problems than I realized. And BTW I noticed something. Pretty much everything you are talking about considers the matter of physical assault. What do you do when a person over the phone refuses to work with you regarding customer service? What part of your training do you draw on when your child decides they want to do something totally Bulls*** with their lives rather than stay in school? What part of your training helps you when the healthcare you counted on suddenly doesn't cover an important procedure? I have no problem talking "reality". However, I wonder if the reality that you are substituting is as artificial as some of the "tradition that you are working to improve on. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] simple weapons Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > bashing, throwing, poking, etc. So learn to use a > katana for instance, and you can actually kick up a > broom handle and use it in the same manner, very > possible in the real world. The whole purpose of > training with weapons and many many weapons is to be > able to use what ever is on the battlefield that > resembles what weapon(s) you learn... Learn 'traditional' stick and/or knife. Nothing to change from training to usage and they are all around you (or on your person). Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "John Kedrowski" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Cc: jmkedrowski@hotmail.com Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:51:03 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Traditional realistic training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net There is an old story that goes like this. There was a boy who wanted to learn the sword so he went to a local master and said, I want to be the best swordsman.  Can you teach me?  The master says yes.  And then the boy asks, how long will it take?  The master says ten years.  Ten years, exclaims the student, but what if I work really hard and practice all of the time?  Twenty years, the master replies.  The boy, sensing where this conversation is going, ceases it and agrees to whatever terms the master sets forth.  The very next day, while the boy is washing up for the morning the master attacks him with a bamboo pole.  After a few painful thumps, the boy asks why.  The master replies, that it is training.  Then he gives the boy some chores to do around the house, like chopping wood, digging holes, and other physically demanding task.  At any time though the master would come out with his bamboo pole or whatever weapon was at hand and attack.  At night, in the privie, at the dinner table, it didn't matter, the master would surprise his student and thump him if he didn't defend himself.  This routine went on for three years, until finnally, one day, while the boy was cooking dinner, the master attacked with his bamboo pole.  The boy blocked the attack with the wok he was holding and then went back to cooking dinner.  The very next day, the master gave the boy his first practice sword... This story was presented to me by my instructor to show that traditional training takes many forms.  Many things that are done in the do-jang are traditional in a sense and not traditional in another.  I think that many ideas that people consider to be non-traditional now, are actually old ideas come back to life.  And then there are things that were once considered traditional, that are just not possible in these days.  Such as duels and dojo storming, both of these are pretty much illegal.  Which brings me to the point of this letter.  Times change and people change.  Martial arts changes and evolves in response.  Realistic and non-realistic, in the context of todays world are two ends of a bell curve.  The further one moves away from a balance the more difficult and dangerous or the more effete and intellectual they become.  For instace realistic attacks are done with the intent to hurt maim or kill.  If one's goal is to train as realistically as possible, then one needs to attack with the intent to hurt, maim, or kill.  All else, in an extremely martial sense, will result in the formation of bad habits, because, as my instructor says, "we fight how we train."  With this in mind, then, the intellectual and creative aspects of training become more important in order to reduce the amount of injury sustained by students and to build something beyond sheer fighting skill.  Which accounts for the "do" at the end of most systems that people train in.  What is the goal of our practice?  What use?  When I find myself nursing injuries more then training I tell myself that, "its good to be a good fighter, its better to be a good person."  And then I seek to balance the martial and the art. Tang Soo John Kedrowski ------------------------------------------------------------------------ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:43:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] The Master Trap Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I call what Dakin and Bruce are referring to in their posts as the "The Master Trap". When presenting the image of "the master" becomes more important or takes up more time than progressing in the martial arts then you are trapped. You cannot do things in class for fear of not being perfect. You cannot participate with the students for fear of being out-performed or showing ignorance of some facet of the martial arts. Assuming the mantle of "Master" can even twist a person into acting as if they have mastered all arts rather than the one they *used to* devote their study time to. All you can do is stand at the front of the room, count and bark orders. There is a lot of that here in Korea. Thankfully, there are a lot of masters who escaped that trap. This is not to say that a person caught in the nmaster trap cannot teach. They certainly can, and they can inspire confidence in a deep and lasting way. What they cannot do, however, is grow. That lack of growth divorces them completely from the journey of personal growth that "Do" arts require. I hope I don't wake up one morning and realize that I have walked into that trap. I think it might be very easy to miss. ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:47:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: [The_Dojang] Re:_Thoughts_on_realistuc_training_vs_traditiona l_training. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ok...Here are my thoughts: --- bsims@midwesthapkido.com wrote: In the end, isn't traditional training the same as realistic training? I suppose traditional training WAS at one point someone's reality for there time and the need of the land. We can only speculate as to how people fought in feudal japan, korea, etc. But perhaps they squared off and fought exactly how the forms are performed. So the arts that were created for or in a specific time period are rendered almost useless as times change. So as the times change, so should our training to accomodate the need of the day. Wouldn't you say? Is what you are saying that we get attacked in stairwells, and alleyways and vestibules so that is where we should take our training? Sort of. What I am saying is you may not get attacked in an environment that you are comfortable with, like a spacious dojang. You may get attacked in a narrow ally. So why not train for as many scenarios as possible. I'm not in the military but I believe they do the same thing. To prepare for battle in iraq I don't think the military would train in a closed building that doesn't resemble the environment or climate of that region. That just wouldn't be practical right? So I'm sure they train for the environment where there will be fighting. So in a sense what I'm saying is the same thing. Afterall, we don't wear do-bok out on the street so we should actually dress in street clothes. I am aware of many places that have you train in "street clothes". But that is a good point. Why not wear street clothes? Some people may wear free flowing clothes like a dress, which is different than fighting in a comfortable dobok. Even tight clothes is different. The thought is to train as close to how you'd POSSIBLY be using your art as possible. Then again not everybody wears the same street clothes. So this would be why everyone would wear their own clothes. To be comfortable fighting in their own clothes. Whether tight, baggy, etc. I don't live on a boat but there are hundreds of thousands of world citizens who do. Shouldn't we be incorporating boat techniques into our curriculum? If they feel this is a potential area of attack, why not. I'm sure there is a certain uncomfortable "feel" to a boat veruses the pavement. But in many cases the environment will "repeat" itself so it wouldn't be necessary to train for every single situation, simply because things will be repeatative. A narrow deck is similar to a narrow hallway, so what you are training for is a lack of space. And what about the travelers on jet-liners and trains and buses? Shouldn't we have a bus as part of the dojang for using techniques in those cramped quarters? No, you don't need a bus, or airplane, etc. To train to be able to fight in those environments. You basically stated the answer "cramped quarters". You can re-create cramp quarters by simply building a space with cramped quarters. *home depot- wood, sheet rock, nails...you'd be surprised. You also have not said anything about what techniques to practice with suicide bombers or snipers. Not really sure why a comment as such was necessary but to answer. I didn't mention it because it's a foolish thought. However, the police has given the best instruction in these matters....should you see or hear of suspects things, or threats inform the authorities. It really is out of you hands. I am talking about things that we CAN do something about directly. A person wants to rob you, or rape your wife, etc. WE CAN do something about that. Should we expand our curriculum to include rating in demolitions? We should do what ever we think is proper to protect our families and ourself. If I think I am reading your post correctly, what I think I am hearing is that you believe that people need to train harder. I'm simply stating we need to train SMARTER. See, that's a misconception, martial arts is very very very little to do with fighting. It is about self mastery, though self discovery. Thought self discovery we reach enlightenment. Any thug can train HARD to beat the hell out of someone. So basically if all you think the martial arts is , is training harder to be good at it, then it is basically all about fighting, and thugs. Thugs fight, warriors use their minds to win on the mental battlefield, which may not have to deal with fighting at all. A true martial artist doesn't want to harm life at all, in life is the possibility to change, in death there is none. The martial arts should be a way of life. I am now understanding that it is not for some....for some it is fighting, thus their need for confrontation on several levels. By this I don't mean do more calisthetics but train with the techniques that they are taught with a more practical or pragmatic eye. By this I mean train to use the mind...the most powerful weapon on this earth. Where we might differ in our views, though, is that you seem to think that this can be induced by changing the environment and thereby change the practitioners' attitude. I think this approach does a number of things the most important, prepares the body for the difference in environments, allows the body to get the "feel" of the differences. My previous example of the military is a great example here. I, for my part, think that you change the persons' attitude and it might happen that the environment, of itself, won't actually matter. I guess it would depend on the person. Me for example I know this to not be the case with me. I prefer to have tactic advantageous over my opponents. If being familiar with the surroundings so that I can adapt to them and others is the only advantage I'll take it. Try this. Next time you use the toliet consider that you are not safe and comfortable. Done it. Whenever I use the urnal (sp?) in a public place I often think how would I, could I react in that situation. Or the next time you take a shower, half-way through, with soap in your eyes, there is the outline of an attacker outside the stall. I actually do this also, minus the soap in my eye. But believe me if soap gets in my eye and someone is attempting to attack me, they better watch out...lol. But at the same time that is why we train in as many scenarios as possible, simply because you never know. What I do know is that punchin air won't stop anyone. Kicking air wont either. You don't need fancy tactics and scenerios and exotic drills. I agree, I simply think that since the year is 2003 and times hve changed, crimes are up and POSSIBLY done different then in feudal Korea we should at least attempt to train for our times. *Like I said before, I don't think the militry prepares by staying indoors training all the time. What is practical about a fixed stance and an attack you know is coming, from what direction, and the type of attack? How will you benefit in the street from that? The key is that you have to make the art your own. You may not agree with my thoughts but even you have made your art your own....thus changing it. That's the first part. And BTW I noticed something. Pretty much everything you are talking about considers the matter of physical assault. Yes. I didn't mention ones character because if you're nasty, mean, arrogant, smart mouthed....then that's for that person to fix on their own. That is a part of who they are. Well beyond the topic at hand. Although I could take it there. Especially when s a martial artist the goal is to reach enlightenment where in doing so, you'd have to be humble, but that's a whole other topic. >What do you do when a person over the phone refuses to work with you regarding customer service? Kill them with kindness > What part of your training do you draw on when your child decides they want to do something totally Bulls*** with their lives rather than stay in school? That would be your parenting skills. >What part of your training helps you when the healthcare you counted on suddenly doesn't cover an important procedure? That would be my spiritual skill set to call upon a Higher power. However, I wonder if the reality that you are substituting is as artificial as some of the "tradition that you are working to improve on I highly doubt it. Jye __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest