Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:56:03 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #354 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Improving (Rudy Timmerman) 2. Re: Doping control (Ray Terry) 3. Workout schedule (Rudy Timmerman) 4. Re: The Master Trap (Manuel Maldonado) 5. Tradition v/s reality (Rudy Timmerman) 6. goin to halifax (keith macneil) 7. training with weapons (A. Boyd) 8. Re: Thoughts on realistuc training vs traditional training. (Jye nigma) (Robert Martin) 9. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Oh,_really=3F_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 10. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Realistic_vs_Traditional_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 11. Re: The Master Trap (Chris and Cindy) 12. Kettlebells (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:24:45 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Improving Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Daking writes: > If you are so afraid of making a mistake in public that you stop > experimenting, I think you've stopped improving. I play with > students now that are much faster and stronger and frankly, > BETTER, than I am. They're 20 years younger than me, and I think > I've done a good job in bringing them up to speed. If I was afraid of > making a fool of myself, I would never get any better. Hi Dakin: Good points, and the main reason why my white belt is a permanent part of my gear. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Doping control Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I was given a printout on WTF Regulations for Doping > Control by my > KwanJangNim, GM Emmanuel Ikpeme, & I came across > article 8 sub-section 6 "Throughout the doping control procedure, > no photographes may be taken". Why is this? > Considering the gravity of the implications and > penalty(ies) metted > out to those who fail the test, I think the procedure > should in fact > be video taped! Afterall, article 10 sub-section 2 says > "... The athlete may be present or be represented during > analysis of the B-sample". You might check with... African Taekwondo Union (WTF) PO Box 61002 Nairobi, Kenya 254-37-41579 Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:29:54 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Workout schedule Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Big Ken writes: > Wake up, and take a coupla swigs of Makers Mark and 7 up, followed by > a few cups of coffee, and a laxative. Helps with the hemmoroids. Pop > one Simavistin at 20mg, and one Paxil CR at 25 mg. Helps with the high > cholesterol and severe depression. This is > followed by a short nap. Hello Ken: Its been a while, and we missed you: I'm with your schedule so far, are you sure the rest of it is necessary, or will a repeat of the above suffice? Perhaps dropping the last part will help alleviate the severe depression. We can then drop the drugs and go right into the nap:) Good to hear from you, the humor is always appreciated. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Manuel Maldonado" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:42:23 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The Master Trap Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My whole concept of a "Master" is one that is a teacher all knowing. I'm a member of the ITF and we arent called "Master" until we reach VII Degree (7th Dan). I think the WTF uses the term at IV Degree (4th Dan). Just because someone has a Master Intructor Certificate dosnt make him/her a true Master. To me a Master is the one Sabumnim that you can go to with all sorts of Martial arts problems. He/She should be able to talk you through any situation. You may ask the Master "how do I get out of this wrist lock, or how can I move around such in such kick so I can score.ect. Just remember the Master should always be humble lead by example you should feel comfortable to follow your Master anywhere. My students call me Master since I'm the Kwan Jang Nim of my school I've explained to them time in time again that I'm no "Master" just a school owner. If they feel that I'm their Master then... so be it. Till next time thank you again for letting me post. Kwan Jang Nim Maldonado _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:13:10 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Tradition v/s reality Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye writes: > I suppose traditional training WAS at one point > someone's reality for there time and the need of the > land. We can only speculate as to how people fought in > feudal japan, korea, etc. But perhaps they squared off > and fought exactly how the forms are performed. So the > arts that were created for or in a specific time > period are rendered almost useless as times change. So > as the times change, so should our training to > accomodate the need of the day. Wouldn't you say? Hello Jye: Been in several real fights over the years (and a whole bunch of altercations), and nothing has changed over my fifty some years of fighting. The ultimate point is still saving your butt, and you must have the gumption and skill to do whatever it takes to achieve that. Traditional training to learn how to fight has nothing to do with doing forms, they were not designed to learn how to win fights anymore than shadow boxing and bag work are designed to make a boxer win fights. All of these things are merely tools to train you to hopefully do a better job, and when they don't you get other tools to train with. In the case of forms, they are simply sport specific exercises, and doing techniques are simply doing two man forms. There is NOTHING you can do to train for realistic fighting except hone your skills to do the best of whatever happens in a real fight. See the problem with real fights is that they are too unpredictable to train for, and all one can do is prepare the body to take and give abuse you can't even imagine. If you have ever been in a fight where your life is actually on the line, you'll understand better. Until then, you can't even imagine what is about to happen to you, let alone train realistically for it. The body and mind undergo such drastic changes during such a fight that duplicating them is impossible in a situation that does not cause these changes to happen to you. Most folks have been in an altercation, and when they do they think they have been in a real fight... far from it. You have just been in a sparring match. When someone actually tries to kill you, it becomes a whole different ball game. You simply cannot duplicate that in a dojang unless your dojang IS the street, and you are prepared to kill anyone on that street that wants to do you in. In the end, we can only be hopeful that our "traditional" training has given us the smarts to stay the hell away from the real thing. If it comes to you anyway, we can only hope that our traditional training will give us enough of an edge that allow us NOT to do the killing. If not, you are into a whole different fight (that can take your life in some states). If killing IS necessary, I pray that I have the wisdom to know that before I get killed. Of course, I will get all sorts of blasts for my view on this; however, all I can say is I am still here, so my theory can't be all that bad. Some of my friends were not so lucky (and I learned from their mistakes). Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "keith macneil" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:25:13 -0300 Subject: [The_Dojang] goin to halifax Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am going to halifax for a few days this week, and would love to get some training in if possible. If there are any martial artists in Halifax that have some suggestions for a good experience, please let me know. I am going up to train with Grandmaster Carabin, but I am open to experiencing as much as I can. Yours In Taekwondo Keith MacNeil _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:31:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] training with weapons Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye wrote that, in his opinion, weapons forms (or any forms), such as something like "TBGT knife form #1" do not *by themselves* teach people to really use a weapon. Speaking as a martial artist that focuses almost entirely on weapons use, I would have to agree. Forms are indispensible in learning elements of combative principles, but are not complete training tools by themselves. What single method of training in anything is complete by itself? Bruce's reply gave me a deep and appreciated belly-laugh, but I think maybe Bruce was replying to another argument, not Jye's actual intent. I agree with Bruce's sentiment too. We have to draw a line somewhere and practice what we practice with commitment, proper intent, and awareness. We need to know the value of what we practice and we must value our training. We cannot realistically train for every situation (for example: self-defense while parachuting; characters in Drop Zone or Point Break could have used that!) and a life spent in pursuit of such a level of preparedness would require a stunning amount of free-time and cash. (perhaps paranoia, too?) Still, this should never preclude us from taking an opportunity to expand our knowledge and open ourselves to new perspectives. Why not pratice on ice once or twice when winter comes around? You might learn something valuable about the difference between active and passive balance. Why not practice in a pool during a summer vacation? Learning to see old material in a new way is a valuable part of growth. Anything which can serve to exapnd our comprehension of our martial traditions will enable us to better preserve and transmit them to the next generation. I think it is this point where Jye's and Bruce's posts differed. Jye suggested that our arts need to change to incorporate modern innovation. Bruce is interested in preservation of authenticity. Both are goals to be valued and both are necessary. There is no reason that the two cannot mix. Perhaps what needs to change is the way a person approaches training in the traditional techniques? There is no way a form can make you a warrior, but a warrior can certainly use a form to their own betterment. ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Robert Martin" To: Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:16:41 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Thoughts on realistuc training vs traditional training. (Jye nigma) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My only conern would be that the beginning or less experienced student wouldn't have a solid foundation of basic technique. Your idea would work better with advanced students -- those having a number of years of training. Just my 2 cents, Robert Martin > -- __--__-- > > Message: 8 > Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 13:46:58 -0700 (PDT) > From: Jye nigma > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] Thoughts on realistuc training vs traditional training. > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > I find that many traditional schools lack realistic > training for the street. now don't get me wrong, the > moves we learn, the joint locks/breaks, pressure > points, weapons, etc. can be used to effectively, but > it the way(s) many of us train that lacks realism. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:27:54 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Oh,_really=3F_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Anthony: ".... All you can do is stand at the front of the room, count and bark orders. There is a lot of that here in Korea. Thankfully, there are a lot of masters who escaped that trap......" I have to admit that I never conceived of someone successfully doing this over in Korea. I ass-u-me-d that if there were ever a place where people could/would not transcend this trap it would be in the homeland. How would someone make this work in Korea? By that I mean, how did the individuals that you have in mind break away from the idea of representing themselves as knowing it all and avoiding growth? Does it take withdrawing from the mainstream of practitioners? Must it be done inspite of the mainstream? Any insight you could give would be appreciated. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:48:32 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Realistic_vs_Traditional_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jye: ".....Yes. I didn't mention ones character because if you're nasty, mean, arrogant, smart mouthed....then that's for that person to fix on their own. That is a part of who they are. Well beyond the topic at hand. Although I could take it there. Especially when s a martial artist the goal is to reach enlightenment where in doing so, you'd have to be humble, but that's a whole other topic....." Thanks for a very thoughtful reply. I'm guessing that you point up another place where we might differ in our approach. As I said in my post, perhaps the place to start is in the practitioners' mind rather than with shaping the environment. Therefore, I am thinking that to consider shaping a persons' Character as a some thing for them to "fix on their own" or "whole other topic" from what we are discussing here may demonstrate a different training approach as well as a different goal for training. As much as I am sure that people want to practice their art to the point of peak combat efficiency and effectiveness, development of the Character, in my book, must go hand-in-hand with developing the body. There are way too many examples of effective fighters who deport themselves with the Character of an animal to list them all here. IMHO I will guess that everyone reading this can think of at least one in their experiences. On the other hand, when we run into someone who has trained hard, become effective, but also has developed the Character to incorporate that training into their lives effectively I think we recognize it immediately. Now, I am not saying that a person foregoes hard training for hours of philosophical contemplation. What I am saying is that the body, mind, emotions and spirit develop together according to the same code and using the same paradyms and we know the successful result of such training. For the LEO-s among us, there is the fellow officer who shows a sound balance between tenacity and restraint, reason and emotion. Or the military, where dedication and spirit keep aggression and goal-orientation in check. I know as I close this out that there are people who are sure that I have really gotten off the original subject and I can understand how a person can think that way. For my part, though, I think I am talking about the origina subject, but examining it from a different point of view. As I mentioned in my previous post, Jye, I believe that the training starts in the head and generalizes to the environment. I'm not saying that you can't do it the way you have described in your post. What I am saying is that I think it would be more energy efficient to start with the head using such things as imagery and encounter the environment as you find it, than try to anticipate every environment and hope that the mind records it all. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:54:08 -0400 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Chris and Cindy Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The Master Trap Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I call what Dakin and Bruce are referring to in their posts as the "The > Master Trap". >When presenting the image of "the master" becomes more important or takes >up more time >than progressing in the martial arts then you are trapped. You cannot do >things in class >for fear of not being perfect. You cannot participate with the students >for fear of being >out-performed or showing ignorance of some facet of the martial arts. >Assuming the mantle >of "Master" can even twist a person into acting as if they have mastered >all arts rather >than the one they *used to* devote their study time to. All you can do is >stand at the >front of the room, count and bark orders. There is a lot of that here in >Korea. >Thankfully, there are a lot of masters who escaped that trap. This is not >to say that a >person caught in the nmaster trap cannot teach. They certainly can, and >they can inspire >confidence in a deep and lasting way. What they cannot do, however, is >grow. That lack of >growth divorces them completely from the journey of personal growth that >"Do" arts >require. > I hope I don't wake up one morning and realize that I have walked into > that trap. I >think it might be very easy to miss. > >===== This is an interesting observation and, in some ways, I agree. Perhaps this question is due to a lack of knowledge and experience on my part - but, how can a person train adequately while they are teaching? The students are paying to be taught a martial art, therefore it should be the teachers responsibility to devote their time to teaching these students. I, for one, work full time during the day and teach 4 classes every night. While I'm teaching, I dedicate all of that time to teaching (not personal training). Occasionally, I'll perform a few techniques for the class or pair myself with a student and work out a little - but, this can not be categorized as personal training or growth. With this kind of schedule, it is near impossible to find free time for my own training, and when I do find the time, it is solo training. There are some things that just can't be practiced adequately by yourself. If anyone has suggestions on how I can remedy this problem, I'm certainly open to the input. --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Kettlebells Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net FWIW... Basic Kettlebell info, http://www.kbnj.com. Kettlebell Exercise Database, http://bodybuilding.com/fun/kettlebells.htm. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest