Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:00:04 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #362 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: knee injury (Eric Walker) 2. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Free_Advice_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 3. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Removing_a_sword_edge?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 4. Re: knee injury (Hugo van Duin) 5. Re: In Reference to the Korean Karate (Christopher Spiller) 6. Re: Re:Tours and such (John Johnson) 7. Knee Pops are not good news.... (Tony Preston) 8. Martial arts parade (Rudy Timmerman) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Eric Walker" To: Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:42:21 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: knee injury Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ed, I had a similar experience a little over two years ago. I'm afraid there's absolutely no way to be sure without an MRI, but I'll venture a guess. You have injured or torn you Anterior Cruciate Ligament (ACL). That is what usually goes with and inward blow to the knee or a plant and pivot type injury. The loud pops are not a great sign, nor is the instability. However don't give up hope on your training. I never missed a day of class over my injury and recovery from surgery; I just had to train differently for a while. The first couple of months I mainly stretched as I could and instructed class (the master had to have a revision on one of his knees one week after mine and of course he couldn't drive to class, I had one of my friends pick me up and so I could make it). I learned a number of important things about martial arts while I was under the weather, mainly how to relax while doing my technique. I train in hapkido, and although our style is not as aerobically intensive as TKD can be, I am sure that you will be able to return to training. I hope that you have health insurance because having a knee rebuilt is expensive. If you are relatively young, say under 45 you will probably be told by your orthopedist (if you need surgery) that you will do best with an auto-graft. This is where they take bone and ligament tissue from the thick ligament of you knee cap and build you a new ACL. It's been 2 years and 1 day since my surgery and I'm going strong now. I put up with some minor pain and swelling and take Aleve almost every day, but I am so glad I had the thing fixed. It's my right knee and I've had to put a lot of work into the recovery, but it was worth it. Don't expect to have to stop your training; just expect to have to take a slightly different path for a while. Don't give up hope, just become determined.... Eric Walker --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:51:33 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Free_Advice_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ed: "....well any advise you all have will be greatly appriciated...." Yes, I have some GREAT advice. LISTEN TO THE DOCTOR!!!! Maybe its a guy thing, or maybe a maturity thing--- I really don't know but I wish I had a nickel for every dunce who has come to a MA class too soon after injury, or has removed their own cast, or couldn't quite find time for their daily rehab program. What are these guys thinking?? You are paying the doctor for his "expert opinion", right? If he says something can be expected to take 6 weeks to heal--- take the 6 weeks! Work on hand techniques, slow-mo your hyung or get in some extra reading on your particular style. You don't get any medals for showing up two days after the the injury and telling everyone who will listen that "the doctor said stay off it, but I can handle it." Let it heal right the first time and you have a much better chance NOT blowing it out again any time soon.Its not like you're a pro-ball player and are under the gun to get back in the game.Take your time. I admit that joints are bad things to injure, but time and tlc go a long way in keeping you from being called "gimpy" later in life. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:05:06 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Removing_a_sword_edge?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mark: The only problem that I see is that you are working with stainless steel and its not the easiest thing to deal with. I have to question the judgement of someone who would give a beginner a shin guem to practice with. Since you are practicing a drawing art I would have thought that the teacher would have automatically chosen an Iai-to from NOS or somebody. Of course, you CAN get a stainless steel wall-hanger for under $100US so maybe economics played a role. Getting back to you question the problem is not taking the edge off. A soft, large grit stone and about 500 long licks oughta do it. Problem comes in when you want to try to sharpen that puppy up again. Notice I didn't say use an electric grinder to dull your sword? Stainless is brittle stuff and chips a whole lot easier than you think. Nobody can guarentee where those chips will go, either. Come time to shapen the sword you have the same problem. Long slow lick but in this case you don't have one of those shapening jigs like they do at the El Cheapo House of Swords factory, so you can kiss uniformity good-bye. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:31:30 +0200 From: Hugo van Duin Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] knee injury To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ed, I just got back of a knee injury (I tore my right inner (medial) meniscus during my black belt exam, also in TKD (first candidate after theory, no warm-up...)) , the doctor told me this is a pretty common injury, if you made a roundhouse whilst not turning your supporting foot with a bend leg...tada . If you have problems stretching your leg and it locks sometimes (or is unstable) it could likely be a meniscus injury (what exactly did happen when you injured it, did it swell (even a little bit)?). The doctor could tell you to wait a few months, if its on the outside of the meniscus or some other (more minor) injury it would be likely to heal in that time. For me I had my injury in December, went to the doctor in April, operation (after MRI) in June (hospitals are very busy in The Netherlands) and back to soft training right now. Of course there are a lot of other possibilities (the popping I also heard when I tore my ankle ligaments, and knee ligaments are also very susceptible to injury...) the good news is that most of these injuries heal just fine (although it might take a while). Hope its nothing! Cheers, Hugo PS I did get my BB :-), although I couldn't fully stretch my leg anymore... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 07:11 Subject: [The_Dojang] knee injury Hello, My name is Ed and I have been reading the digest for 2 weeks now and have enjoyed it thus far. Im very new to MA and im presently training in TKD since July 03 and last thursday while free sparing I made a big mistake and dislocated my right knee to the inside (left) heard 2 loud pops, and walked on it in about 5 minutes, blew it out later that night at work. now its super unstable and will pop out if im not careful when walking. i guess what im getting at is that has anyone had any problems like this and what kind of prognosis can I expect.... I am seeing an orthopedist on monday but im dying inside presently and im worried about continuing my training which ive grown to love. well any advise you all have will be greatly appriciated. Thank You, Ed _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:52:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: In Reference to the Korean Karate Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >> Thanks guy's for your support on this one. I didnt want to put anyone in any hard place w/ the question. I was just doing research and asking questions on the subject. I understand where the most of you are coming from and that helps me alot. As the ChungDoKwan TKD I have found that is the common reference to the Korean Karate or Blue Cottage which is a twist of Shotokan flavor. Gosh you have to love the way you have to phrase it...LOL.... I think I have enough info from all your helpful ideas and other things I have read to make a lead on it and understand it. Fully maybe not....but enough to know what and where it may of originated from. Again thanks.. Cory Ballinger<< I don't think I'm following you here. "Blue Cottage" is the English translation of Chang-Hun, the pattern set used by the ITF (and other orgs.) developed by Gen. Choi. "Chung Do Kwan", as far as I know, translated as Blue Wave School, not Blue Cottage. Taekwon, Chris __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "John Johnson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re:Tours and such Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:42:40 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I don't know anything about the company offering the tours, however most Korean PKG tours are not worth the money. They rush you through each event or site so you can bask in the fact you were there or had your picture taken somewhere special, rather than enjoying the experience itself. I traveled three years ago to stay at Gulgoksa (Gulgok temple) and train in Sunmudo. It was a great experience. The train ride from Seoul was a under $30 (one way) and I was able to stay with room, board, and training for only $25 a day. Usually they charged foreigners about $50 dollars, but my friend called and told them I had lived in Korea for a while and was practically Korean, which got me the reduced price. I think it's bus #100 that takes you about hour outside of the city and then there's a short 15 minute walk from there. However, I suggest having someone with some knowledge of Korean to help you get there since not many people speak English. To my knowledge there are no ways to check customer satisfaction on Korean package tours. However, if you don't mind being pushed along and having little time for personal exploration and enjoyment, they are usually trustworthy. The guides will ensure you eat well and sleep comfortably (at Gulgoksa, however, you're welcome to pull up a floor mat and snuggle in), as well as try to meet your needs. Befriend the guide and you'll have a much better time since they will usually take you out at night. Those have been my experiences. I hope they help. John A. Johnson >From: >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Tours and such Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 12:24:33 >-0500 (CDT) > >Dear Folks: > >I was playing around with the ALTA VISTA search engine the other night and >came up with > >www.parandeul.co.kr/gyong_overview.htm > >The tours were intersting the way they were set up but what caught my eye >was that it did not seem to be the usual "this-is-the-Kukkiwon"-sort of KMA >tour. So here come the questions. > >1.) Has anyone had passing experience with any of the groups mentioned on >the site including the Gyongdang, Sunmudo, or Kunmudo people? > >2.) Has anyone had any experience with PKG tours? > >3.) Is their a function for checking on the company regarding customer >satisfaction? > >Best Wishes, > >Bruce >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1400 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:46:30 -0500 From: "Tony Preston" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Organization: Custom Services Subject: [The_Dojang] Knee Pops are not good news.... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From: TIBIDOR@aol.com >Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:11:29 EDT >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] knee injury >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >Hello, > >My name is Ed and I have been reading the digest for 2 weeks now and have >enjoyed it thus far. Im very new to MA and im presently training in TKD since >July 03 and last thursday while free sparing I made a big mistake and dislocated >my right knee to the inside (left) heard 2 loud pops, and walked on it in >about 5 minutes, blew it out later that night at work. now its super unstable and >will pop out if im not careful when walking. > >i guess what im getting at is that has anyone had any problems like this and >what kind of prognosis can I expect.... I am seeing an orthopedist on monday >but im dying inside presently and im worried about continuing my training >which ive grown to love. well any advise you all have will be greatly appriciated. > >Thank You, > Ed > Well, If the knee is unstable (hyperextends when you walk) and will not support you when you twist, then you probably tore the ACL. I did that to both knees over the 9 or so years I have been doing Martial Arts. The first one did not pop at all, just a twist the wrong way (foot trapped) and bang, no support. The second one was a bad double leg take-down where my foot got trapped in the mat.... a painful one. I had Patella tendon replacement surgery on both knees (I would not do anything else myself). You usually have a choice of patella tendon, ham string, cadaver tendon. The patella tendon is the thick one in the front of the knee, they take a strip down the middle and a bit of bone on each end. That is graphed into the original ligament spot and after it heals is slightly stronger than the original. Ham String is where they take part of your ham string, Cadaver is where they use a graph from a donar. The graph is wrapped around a screw (large set screw). My preference was for patella tendon since the bone knits and while you still have a screw, it seemed to me to be a stronger replacement. I told my doctor that I was going to continue doing martial arts. He put me on a program of rehab without a brace (most doctors will tell you that a brace is needed, tell them you want to *NOT* use a brace because it will interfer with your martial arts). I was about 44 when I had the first one, and got my black belt after my recovery. I was recovering from the second surgery on the other knee when I was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer (Jan 2001) and continued to train to recover the knee. I am alive today because of an Alternative treatment (called Protocel), Martial Arts (I learned never to give up from Martial Arts) and alot of prayers from friends and family. It takes about 6-8 weeks for the knee to heal after surgery, you will start rehab right after surgery. Expect to do nothing for at least a week (depends on your tolerance to pain), I was off from work for one week (I work with computers so It was easy to work and elevate the leg). Expect to do NO MARTIAL ARTS for 4-6 months, my doctor insisted that I put no real strain on the knee other than the rehab (worse than most MA classes...). Expect to recover pretty quickly if you leg is in good shape (it should be from the martial arts), you will recover faster than the average person half your age! It will be 9-11 months before the knee will feel "right", part of this is psycological, part is the healing process. I still baby my right knee a little (it had more damage than the left one) and it affects what I will do. I earned my second degree black belt after the knee injury. When I was diagnosed, I was told that I had 11 months to live and would be disabled in 4-5 months. I refused to accept that and found an alternative treatment. I came back to training in karate and had told everyone about my diagnosis. I planed on training until I die before I was diagnosed with Cancer, so I continued even if my life was to be shortened. At that time, I was pretty weak, lost about 30 pounds and while I had completed everything I needed to qualify for my testing for 2nd degree, I had not tested because of the knee injury. The head instructor, shortly after I returned to karate, arranged a dinner for me and most of the adult students were there. It was a special monment to know I had such friends. At the end of the dinner, he told me he had a gift for me, it was my 2nd degree black belt. I can't describe the feelings I had for that group of people and for what it meant for me. I missed the test, but because of the situation he awarded me my rank anyway. That was almost 3 years ago... My knees are feeling great and when you have to decide, remember that if a 50 yr old martial artist can do it, so can you. I am a bit more careful with what I do, I think I know some of the reasons why a knee is blown out (people land while still rotating when doing jumping spin kicks) and do not wish to experience that problem again.... I would rather test for my 3rd degree (I still have alot to master before that happens...:) --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:17:21 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial arts parade Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Byron writes: > I was a fourth Gup before I realized that the sign said "Martial Arts" > instead of "Marital Arts". I was wondering when the good stuff was > coming. :-) Hello Byron: This reminds me of a funny incident when the group I was affiliated with participated in a local San Francisco parade. Students of the group, along with all of the beautiful floats (and just ahead of the vehicle carrying the GM), carried a huge banner that stretched right across the road. It read (among the usual advertising) "Korean Marital Arts" in the boldest letters one could find. Funny thing is that no one noticed until the parade was in full swing. I always wondered if they had any strange applications as a result:) A picture of this parade banner is still in the textbook of the org. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest