Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 15:51:02 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #369 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: USTS Dan Process (Michael Rowe) 2. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Have_I_awakened_a_Sleeping_Giant=3F_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 3. USTU Dan Process (Michael Rowe) 4. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Getting_exactly_what_they_asked_for--?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 5. Re: Martial Art Publications in Korea (Ali Alnasser) 6. Re: USTU Dan Process (Ray Terry) 7. Minimal resources (Ray Terry) 8. Dan Certification (Manuel Maldonado) 9. Re: Re: Martial Art Publications in Korea (Ray Terry) 10. RE: Kukkiwon Dan Certificates (Piotr Bernat) 11. Re: Dan Certification (Ray Terry) 12. USTU Certification conversion Cost (Johnjfitzg@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 13:13:38 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: USTS Dan Process Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I wrote: > The USTU Dan Certification is in response to the Olympic Committee's > concern about foreign influence in our NGB. Ray replied: <> This has been one of the major complaints that athletes and other supporters of American Sports have had. In discussions with the USOC the comparison was made that the United States Judo Association does not require Kodokan Certification for its competitors and referees. Its time for the USTU and the WTF to grow up. The only requirements for competition and refereeing should be Membership in the NGB of the individual. If the NGB certifies the individual as ready then that is all that is needed. A piece of paper telling me my rank is window dressing. What I can do and what I can teach are what is important. Depending on what you want to do it becomes ridiculous on home many pieces of paper you have for the same rank and the same knowledge. I have a USCKDA 5th Dan because it is the association I chose to be represented by. I hold a Kukkiwon certificate because I like to compete and referee. Some people I know hold a AAU certificate as well and maybe have a school certificate in the closet too. Where does it all end? Michael Rowe --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 13:16:54 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Have_I_awakened_a_Sleeping_Giant=3F_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rudy: Thank you for voicing the same concerns as have I. My prayer is that perhaps an individual of your standing may be able to wrestle some straight answers from the powers-that-be where I could not. ".....Is this just another money grab, or is this another indication that Korean certification is fast becoming worthless?....." "......For those who are more interested in actual training and could care less about certification. Are the current Daehan Kido Hae folks going to offer training to the rest of the world, or are they just going to sit back in their Korean office and collect US dollars for questionable certification? ......." These questions are of major importance and sorely need to be answered. I can see no purpose for continuing to be a member of an prestigious organization when its prestige lies only in its image and not in its practice. And while I am at it--- lets mention a couple of particulars. Rudy, you brought up one in that manner in which World KIDO Fed advertising always seems to cite the support and connection with Korea in naming of the KKF and the Korean Government. For me, however, I look at the signature at the bottom of my cert and ask myself what does it really mean if I have no true relationship with GM Seo? Has he ever seen me work? My cert depends on my presenting a cert from GM Myung who has actually observed and evaluated my performance. What exactly does GM Seos' signature mean if he does no seminars, does not train students, and does not maintain quality control? That in turn begs the question that if these two entities have parted (WKF and the KKF) what will the KKF do for THEIR part that will be better than what GM Seo is doing right now? OR--- are BOTH the WKF AND the KKF going to sit back and become certificate stores? FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 13:19:22 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] USTU Dan Process Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net According to the Web Site a Kukkiwon holder can get a equal rank USTU Certificate for only $50.00 That is inexpensive. Also you don't need your instructor to process it for you. Just send a copy of your current Kukkiwon and $50. Michael Rowe If at first you succeed, try to hide your astonishment! mp_rowe@cox.net --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 13:23:58 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Getting_exactly_what_they_asked_for--?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Seems as though this whole certification things is quickly coming to a head. As far as I can tell, Ray, the question is not whether or not the Koreans KNOW that certs are being sold in their name but do they really give a S***. Its not as though the Koreans have a long history of truely caring what happens to anyone outside the borders of their own country. As wonderful as they can be, there is that quality of the Korean people which can leave them looking pretty self-serving, antagonistic and clannish in their thinking. I think I'll go dust off my Bruce Cummings. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Ali Alnasser" To: Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 03:29:57 +0900 (KST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Martial Art Publications in Korea Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray: > I went to Korea in June and stayed at the International HKD Federation's HQ in Yong-In. GM Myung Jae Nam's son, President Myung Sung Kwang, and I were discussing varies US martial arts publications and he was not aware of either Taekwondo Times or any other magazine except for Black Belt. I showed him a copy of the magazine titled Martial Arts & Combat Arts which had an article recently written about hankido by Heo In Hwan, an master who no longer is a member of the IHF. Presdient Myung was very upset to see the article not mentioning his father, as well as the guys wearing the IHF patch and calling himself the "highest ranking hankido master in the world." He was very interested in me telling all about US martial arts mazgazines and kept the copy of Martial Arts & Combat Arts for his reference. [TABLE NOT SHOWN][TABLE NOT SHOWN][IMAGE] --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] USTU Dan Process To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > According to the Web Site a Kukkiwon holder can get a equal rank USTU > Certificate for only $50.00 > > That is inexpensive. Also you don't need your instructor to process it > for you. > Just send a copy of your current Kukkiwon and $50. The conversion prices quoted by the USTU Dan office are... USTU Dan Conversion Fees: 1st Dan/Poom: $70.00 2nd Dan/Poom: $90.00 3rd Dan/Poom: $120.00 4th Dan/Poom: $150.00 A copy of your Kukkiwon Dan cert is required for processing. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Minimal resources Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > As far as I can tell, Ray, the question is not whether or not the Koreans > KNOW that certs are being sold in their name but do they really give a > S***. Perhaps both. I doubt they know or care. With only two, maybe three, people running the national org on a daily basis, just how much can they really keep track of??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Manuel Maldonado" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:53:20 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Dan Certification Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I often wonder dose Karate have all thease problems with their Dans? I used to study Shin Kai Goyu Ryu as a child and I never heard in all of my years in the Martial Arts anyone saying anything good or bad about Karate Black Belts. It seems that us in Tae Kwon-Do have this "issue" about where or dan comes from. I myself could care less if one of you fine friends of mine from the list wrote one out on a notebook paper and gave it to me. But we all know that this is a business and we have to stay up to date with everything. I don't offer KKW Certification in my schools, but, would love to just so my students can have the benefit of the doubt. We never know where on earth they'll (your student) will end up. I myself spent 5 years in South Korea, I'm sure that GM Benko never thought, that me of all people would go there. I'm glad I did and have a KKW 2nd dan as a beautiful reminder of that wonderful country. I consider myself part Korean and my two sons are half Korean. But getting back to the point.If they want to stop all forgein influence then we should start our own US Tae Kwon-Do Association. Vote one person whom is a high dan to represent us he or she could be our Dr. Kim. Just a thought. I'm sure that will never happen until then I guess we just have to roll with the punches. Till next time and again thank you for listening. Oh please if you could/would please go on my website and sign my guestbook and let me know what you think of my site so we can make improvements. http://devoted.to/Taekwondo Tae Kwon Mr. M. K. Maldonado V Degree KATU-ITF _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Martial Art Publications in Korea To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Ray: >> > > I went to Korea in June and stayed at the International HKD Federation's > HQ in Yong-In. GM Myung Jae Nam's son, President Myung Sung Kwang, and I > were discussing varies US martial arts publications and he was not aware > of either Taekwondo Times or any other magazine except for Black Belt. Same with Gm Ji, and he lives here in the US. Everytime something about him appears in TKD Times, he is not aware of it until I or someone else mentions it to him. His next question is usually... would you send me a copy so I can read it? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Piotr Bernat" To: Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 00:05:47 +0200 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Kukkiwon Dan Certificates Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > As far as I can tell Kukkiwon suberceeds all other Certificates. In other > words if you want to do anything anymore it has to be Kukkiwon > and nothing else. Me as ITF it makes it damn near impossible for me to mingle > with the WTF. Hmmm... here is a small problem. I know that the situation is different in different countries, but here where I live getting a KKW certificate is a joke. It's all the matter of politics and money, nothing else. There was a time where we only offered KKW certification to our students, but the way of testing nowadays makes us laugh. I still remember a quote from a non-training parent watching his son's testing for 1st Dan KKW: "Something less than a green belt test in our school...". Therefore, respect for KKW black belts went down the drain. I asked my black belt candidates a question recently, which one would they prefer: an easy test with a good KKW certificate (knowing that the level there will be disastrous and even people who can't tell Taeguk 5 from Taeguk 8 will pass) or having a good test, but through an independent federation, with their black belt certificate. No one chose Kukkiwon, even if we still offer our students a chance to test both ways... I have 3rd Dan Kukkiwon and decided not to test for 4th Dan KKW even if I had an invitation from the examiner (there is only one KKW examiner in Poland, and if he invites someone to grading, s/he can be sure that the exam is already passed). I made it through an independent group and it was fun and hard work. I won't be going for Olympics, anyway. I'm not interested in being an IR or whatever else. Being a 4th Dan KKW doesn't change anything here as 4th Dans still can't sign KKW Dan applications. Why shall I need to pay all the money to Korea? Besides, I can't really understand why should I pay US$150 for 4th Dan when the Koreans pay only ca. US$30... Regards Piotr Bernat www.taekwondo.prv.pl --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Dan Certification To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 13:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I often wonder dose Karate have all thease problems with their Dans? I > used to study Shin Kai Goyu Ryu as a child and I never heard in all of my > years in the Martial Arts anyone saying anything good or bad about Karate > Black Belts. It seems that us in Tae Kwon-Do have this "issue" about where > or dan comes from. Remember the problems in Shotokan between the JKA and the SKA? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Johnjfitzg@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:43:12 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, rterry@idiom.com CC: Johnjfitzg@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] USTU Certification conversion Cost Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: USTU Certification conversion Cost Cost for the USTU certification conversions is an interesting topic. On Monday, August 11, 2003, Ray Terry of DD forward what appears to be an announcement from the USTU on Aug. 8, 2003 which included the following: "There is no conversion fee for those who already have a Kukkiwon Certificate. New applicants must be submitted only through a current Fourth Dan Black Belt. Please contact Ms. Dedra McClay at the USTU Dan Office ……." However; the USTU web site announcement dated the same date Aug. 8, 2003 included the following: "As such, we have amended the costs associated with those current Kukkiwon Dan holders who wish to have the new USTU Dan Certificate as well. For current Kukkiwon Dan holders who wish to receive a corresponding USTU Dan certificate, the fee is $50.00. This applies to all ranks……" It appears that the first announcement is for the "real members" of the USTU, the "club owners", and the second announcement (on the web site) is for the card carrying members. Based on these announcements, one could conclude the "club owners" can pocket the $50.00 plus any mark up they added on the fee. This is nice bonus for the club owners and example of how the USTU tries to support the real members, the "club owners". As a card carry member, who pays for 4 USTU memberships (all my families is involved and all of us have Kukkiwon Dan certifications) , I very much resent these proposed new additional fees. I also have visited the web site, "Taekwondo Reform…" (www.tkdreform.com), which was recommended in one of this month’s DD messages. This web site stated that 50% of the fees paid to the USTU for the Kukkiwon Dan certification is kept by the USTU. For example, the 3rd Dan fee is $120.00 of which the USTU gets $60.00. If this is correct than the USTU has been making good money off the Kukkiwon certification business and , therefore, they should not be charging anyone with Kukkiwon certification for conversions to the USTU certification. This web site also claims Koreans only pay around $24.95 for the 3rd Dan Kukkiwon certification. If correct, this big difference needs to be explained by the USTU. I know TKD has been a great commercial success in martial arts (MA), but I also have seen many students leave it because of the fees charged for Dan certificates etc.. As someone with over 25 years in business (not MA business) and many more years in MA, I believe greed will hurt TKD more than anything else and these fees seem to be moving in that direction. John P.S. The timing of the USTU certification announcement does seem to be in response to the USOC’s letter of Aug. 1, 2003. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest