Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 05:36:06 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #385 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Jackson seminar (Thomas Gordon) 2. Re: Need someone's help (John Wallace) 3. Re: Breathing during forms (Manuel Maldonado) 4. Children of the Secret State (Ray Terry) 5. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Not_so_strange_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_KHF_Dan_Test_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. Being accountable (Ray Terry) 8. Off to Korea (Todd Miller) 9. Breathing (Rudy Timmerman) 10. Re: Re:_Not_so_strange_ (Jye nigma) 11. From Another Group....Martial Sport vs Combat arts (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Jackson seminar Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 18:57:51 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Timmerman, I intend to go next spring. We are still moving and preparing to open our school - so timing is bad right now. For the list members: About six months ago, I contacted Master Timmerman to see if you knew of someone in my area that did hapkido instruction. He directed me to Master West who directed me to an instructor (Calvin Longton) about a hour from my home. I've been going for several months and this instructors teaching ability is really first class. Even though my black belt ranks are in taekwondo, he appears much more knowledgeable than the typical first degree. So, while I haven't been to Master West's seminar, I can vouch to one of his affiliated schools. Best regards, Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "John Wallace" To: Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 18:19:43 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Need someone's help Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Manuel: I think the Song of the Red-Blooded Heart is what you're looking for. The exact English translation probably depends on whose interpretation you're reading: " Presumably it is part of the Confucian legacy to admire order, discipline, and control; and it is part of the Buddhist and Taoist legacy to admire transcendence over order, discipline, and control, seeing them as means rather than ends. There is presumably considerable tension between these two points of view, but they are not at all mutually exclusive, at least in the sense that traditional propriety also revered freedom of the spirit. The old patriot Chung Mongju is a case in point. He opposed the establishment of the Choson Kingdom (1392-1910) and paid for his opposition with his life. Tradition has it that he knew in advance of the plot to assassinate him. Confucian decorum suggested that it would be showing a lack of respect for his parents who had given him life to lose that life cold sober. Accordingly, he went to a friend's house and consumed a large amount of wine before setting out on his death journey. Again his sense of decorum told him that it would be unbecoming to see the death blow. So, he rode his horse back to front and thus never saw the iron club that felled him as he crossed Straight Bamboo Bridge. A bamboo tree, symbol of unswerving moral probity, is said to have grown on the spot and the stonework of the bridge is said to be speckled red which some like to regard as the blood of the hero. Chong Mong-Ju's spirit is recorded in the poem he wrote declaring his loyalty to the old dynasty: Should I die and die again, should I die a hundred deaths, my skeleton turn to dust my soul exist or no, what could change the unswerving loyalty of this heart toward my lord? Of course the nobility of the man is not enhanced by the exaggerated sense of decorum; it is the way he deals with death that impresses." Quoted in its entirety from "That Bit Extra" Koreana 1988 Kevin O'Rourke, Professor at Kyunhee University http://www.koreana.or.kr/search_db/view.asp?article_id=395&sword=Chong%20Mon g-Ju Also: "This quality is evident in Chong Mong-Ju's (1337-1392) "Song of the Red-Blooded Heart": Though my body die and die again, though it die a hundred deaths, my skeleton turn to dust, my soul exist or not, could the heart, red-blooded in undivided loyalty to its lord, change? " A slightly different translation from "The Mot of the Choson Sonbi" Koreana 1998 Choi Seung-beom,Professor Emeritus of Korean Literature Chonbuk National University. http://www.koreana.or.kr/search_db/view.asp?article_id=454&sword=Chong%20Mon g-Ju Good luck, and please check out the original sources - there's a lot more to the analysis the authors were doing. The words above though seem to be the poem in its entirety. Perhaps someone can transliterate the original from hangul into phonetic korean so we can get a sense of the lyricism? -John W. I Dan, TKD Fremont, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Manuel Maldonado" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 08:35:21 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Need someone's help Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm looking for the poem of Chong Mong-Ju (Po-Eun) 1337-1392. The one that says I shall not serve a second Master may I be crucified 100 times... The only one I was able to find was "Song of the red-blooded heart" which reads: My body may die, again and again one hundred times again, may turn into but a pile of bones and dust, my soul may or may not live on, but my loyalty to my country shall remain unchanged forever... Any help will be appreciated. Manuel K. Maldonado http://devoted.to/Taekwondo _________________________________________________________________ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.515 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/1/2003 --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Manuel Maldonado" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 18:28:58 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Breathing during forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As a member of the ITF we actually exhale at moment of impact. This exhaling is performed in short burst of air, in other words when you execute a block/punch or even a kick. It goes back to your white belt days when your Sabumnin told you to breath in your nose and carry it all the way down to your stomach and exhale with force out of your mouth. If you tense up during the exhale you will actually relieve tension in the muscle causing you to feel more relaxed. The Chineese mastered this technique, thats one of the reasons you don't see very many Kung-Fu practicioners tired after doing their forms. The best work out a Martial Artist can actually have would be to consentrate and execute your Poomse, Hyung, Tul, Form in full force and do all of your forms from white belt to "X" Degree Black. Anyway breath don't breath my best advice is to always follow your Kwan Jang he/she knows whats best, I always do.. till next time Tae Kwon Mr M.K.Maldonado http://devoted.to/Taekwondo _________________________________________________________________ Try MSN Messenger 6.0 with integrated webcam functionality! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_webcam --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 19:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Children of the Secret State Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just fyi... Since we don't see too much on North Korea... The Discovery Times Channel (on cable) is airing a documentary entitled Children of the Secret State, Undercover footage of the plight of North Korean children. It will be shown at least five more times over the next couple of days. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:36:53 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Not_so_strange_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: "......I hope you feel likewise if you made cars and one of them killed someone in an auto accident......" By definition an accident is something that occurs outside the volition of the individual. However, yes, I would still feel some responsibility. I know that in the US it is not fashionable to allow oneself to be held accountable for ones' actions. People spend an awful lot of time ducking, bobbing and weaving to avoid being held accountable. Fact is we each bring something to the party and need to take a look at that and own the part that we brought. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:59:59 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_KHF_Dan_Test_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....Only the KHF Dan Rank Exam. Committee have the right to test students for Dan. All masters only have the right to let their students apply to the Dan test. But still some more prerequisites....." OK, so now I know what I can do with those annoying spare hundred-dollar bills I keep pulling out of my pockets. Stuff them in an envelope and send 'em to Korea. 1.) So a stranger who has never trained me is going to assess my skill based on what he sees in an afternoon, right? His curriculum or mine? 2.) So my Dan rank is issued by the KHF who now has my money and I have their cert hanging on my wall. What exactly does this mean? The fella testing me doesn't know me from the guy standing next to me. What if my technique really sucks and he gives me the cert anyhow? So the KHF says I am a "master". What exactly does THAT mean? Does this guy know how well I teach or is it a matter of how many kids I have in my school on Saturday mornings? 3.) And if one month after I get my cert and the Board of Directors has a falling out and the people left behind make the KHF into the Fraternal Union of KIDO Officials (aka FUKOff) where do I and my fancy wallpaper stand then? 4.) And when all is said and done with me and my fancy wallpaper, is the Hapkido any more authentic? Is the swordwork still something someone made- up so it can be taught to people in Alabama who don't know the diff? Are the teachers still doing nunchukas and representing them as traditional Korean weapons? Of course I may be selling that "Masters' Course" short. Lets see 20 some odd years of practice and training and those geniuses running a program are going to fix all that in a week. Yeah, like THAT could happen! (Whatcha think, Rudy? Too "in your face"? :-) ) Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Being accountable Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > By definition an accident is something that occurs outside the volition of > the individual. However, yes, I would still feel some responsibility. I > know that in the US it is not fashionable to allow oneself to be held > accountable for ones' actions. People spend an awful lot of time ducking, > bobbing and weaving to avoid being held accountable. Fact is we each bring > something to the party and need to take a look at that and own the part > that we brought. FWIW. Being accountable for your actions is great. We need more of that! However... A tool is just a tool. It has no soul or ability to reason. You as the craftsman that created it bear no accountability if someone decides to kill their spouse with one of the fine blades from Bruce's Swords-r-Us. imho But if you have the need to feel guilty about things, go for it. :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:20:20 -0400 From: Todd Miller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Off to Korea Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We are off to Korea again for 2 weeks. Take care Master Miller Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Association --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:29:28 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Breathing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Randall writes: > The better you get, the less breathing you have to do...period...and > quieter! Hi Randall: When you get my age, it is also a good idea to Kihap now and then to make sure you are still alive:) Too bad I wont be seeing you in Jackson, but I hope you will have fun enough for both of us. Please say hello to everyone there. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 03:50:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re:_Not_so_strange_ To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hmmmm....if I made baseball bats, and someone used one of the bats I made to kill someone, I wouldn't feel responsible. But I can tell you what....the person(s) responsible for the development of the atomic bomb, probably had a burden on their heart(s) that no one could imagine. Jye --- bsims@midwesthapkido.com wrote: > Dear Ray: > > "......I hope you feel likewise if you made cars and > one of them killed > someone in an auto accident......" > > By definition an accident is something that occurs > outside the volition of > the individual. However, yes, I would still feel > some responsibility. I > know that in the US it is not fashionable to allow > oneself to be held > accountable for ones' actions. People spend an awful > lot of time ducking, > bobbing and weaving to avoid being held accountable. > Fact is we each bring > something to the party and need to take a look at > that and own the part > that we brought. FWIW. > > Best Wishes, > > Bruce > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1400 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 06:14:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] From Another Group....Martial Sport vs Combat arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey everyone, I found this interesting so check it out and let me know your take on this-Jye: " Now, I do agree that the sport-based arts do not offer what we need by way of real self-defense and real combat training. However, we must realize that sprts-based arts do offer us something that we cannot find in more traditional arts. In Jigoro Kano's time, with barely over 4 years of formal instruction in 2 different styles under 2 differnt instructors, Kano founded a style that obliterated more classical warrior Jujutsu styles in the competition for success among military and police training circuits. He did this by simply focusing on tactics, and by narrowing the tactics of his style on a specified range that denied most of his competitors the use of their preferred combative techniques. What else did Kano do? He created a live training method, randori, which would be the kumite or free-sparring of Judo. He did away with the classical training of pre-arranged techniques, which focused on more lethal methods of dealing with opponents. Kano also reduced the number of techniques to reflect his specialization. His gokyo only contained about 45 techniques, where other arts taught literally thousands. Who did Kano lose to? The Fusen-ryu boys that focused on an even tighter range of combat that denied Kano and his people their ability to throw them. They were the style that introduced the focus of ground-fighting and ne-waza to the world. What did these two arts teach us? First, they taught us that the so-called combative styles had stepped away from the tactics that had once their arts great. Even in traditional combative styles, after 200 yeas of peace in the Tokugawa shogunate, very few martial arts masters and GMs had ever seen any real combat to challenge their claims. For 200 years, they had simply added more and more untested techniques to their styles. Second, they taught us that focusing on a specific range could end a fight much quicker than learning thousands of techniques in a all of the ranges. Kano introduced the idea of keeping his people locked into training solely in unarmed combat until about 2nd black, after which he slowly began to introduce common weapons (mainly to appease the older styles that had come to be represented in the Kodokan consortium). Third, they taught us that live-training is much better for developing reliable combat reflexes and stamina than mere technique training alone. Look at some of the people that attained ranks in Kano's Judo in the early days. The founder of Combato (later known as Defendo) was a 2nd degree black belt in Kano's Judo, and he trained military and police for special operations during war-time years. People that got much closer to actually living as combat samurai and ninja than most of the so-called masters of those arts took Kano's training as the foundation for their combat styles. Today, the sport arts still offer us more by way of tactics than most so-called combative arts. By engaging in constant competition, they achieve what the so-called tactical arts do not. We just have to open our eyes to see that their is something positive to be found in every method, rather than blindly rejecting what others do." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest