Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:39:09 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #406 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Has Black Belt Lost Its Meaning? (Jason E. Thomas (Y!)) 2. October 4th (michael tomlinson) 3. events in Florida (michael tomlinson) 4. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Making_Choices?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 5. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Another_Illusion_Killed_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 6. RE: Oct. 25 (Jason E. Thomas (Y!)) 7. One day seminars (L. Veuleman) 8. Re:Has Black Belt Lost Its Meaning? (Denise) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Jason E. Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Has Black Belt Lost Its Meaning? Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:45:17 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is a very interesting and controversial topic. I think that in recent years people have really latched on to the belt system as a way to have short term goals and "measure there success on the path". For driven people it's only natural for them to wonder how they get to the next step. I could especially understand a 12 yr. old not having patience. Please don't misunderstand my comments I'm a staunch traditionalist and firmly believe in lengthy & appropriate time in grade. I noticed that some organizations like the International Tae Kwon Do Alliance (ITA/Tae Kwon Do Plus) and others have sub-classifications for Dan Grades, such as Probationary, Decided and Senior Ranks... Ie... Probationary 1st Dan Decided 1st Dan Sr. 1st Dan When I first saw this I had a very negative reaction, now that I ponder it in this light of your previous comments. I wonder if it might be a good way for someone to remain focused on goals while they train for 2 years to be eligible for 2nd Dan... I don't know what time limits the ITA uses for this, I'm just using the concept as an example. I believe you can earn a 1st Dan after 2 yrs or so I've been told by some co-workers who are TKD Plus members. However, I'm sure that's a different debate :). I you spread those "sub ranks" over 8 month periods, with appropriate training curriculum, it could help keep their attention and focus. I'd be interested to hear some other opinions on this. Especially anyone who might use this system. Regards, Jason > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Causton [mailto:thekwondokid@hotmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 8:44 PM > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] Has Black Belt Lost Its Meaning? > > I just wanted to bring up a good point that some kids these days don't > realize how special receiving a black belt is. There are quite a few > young black belts under 12 at my club, and it seems to me that most of > them just see it as another level. Just another obstacle in the way > before their next level. It took me seven hard years to earn my first > poom and once I finally did, I was SO proud of myself. I reflected back > on all of the strenuous training, and hard work. These kids, because they > are kids dont get put through as much training and hard work and get off > easy. I had one student ask me how long before he got to test for his > second poom, right after his first poom test. I'm thinking to myself, you > just got your first poom, why in the world are you so dead set on getting > your second so fast. I just think that my club, and any other clubs that > deal with the same thing should take the time to let the students know > how special and amazing it is to finally achieve a black belt. To realize > that you are now "recognized" as a black belt, and you are now starting > the second phase of martial art training. Which should take much longer > than the first, and that they should always remember the hard work. And > that brings up another point, It makes me feel sick to hear that a lot of > people quit when they achieve their first poom/dan. Black isn't the last > level. A lot of kids dont have enough respect for their uniform, their > belt, and what not, But I just dont understand how some one can simply > brush off and forget the true meaning of a black belt. It just seems to > me that some students need to wake up and open their eyes! Am I alone on > this one? or do other people see what I mean? > > Just wanted to voice my opinion! > > Keith > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:21:05 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] October 4th Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am also looking forward to meeting and working out with Grandmaster J.R. West next weekend in Tampa,, I already have my ben gay, knee brace, and comb packed!!! For those who don't know me I haven't had hair since the last halle bop comet flew over the planet... but I'll dang sure be there!! Mike Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Share your photos without swamping your Inbox. Get Hotmail Extra Storage today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:54:45 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] events in Florida Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net When it comes to events in my area just let me say how I personally view such things... 1. I go to ALL events with ONLY the thought of furthering my Hapkido knowledge. I am not interested in ANY political ramifications or "titles" that I might be able to get once I pay my money. I don't view events as a way of "meeting" Hapkido dignitaries and get some pictures, I view them as a chance to further my knowledge on the mat. 2. I hold EVERYONE I meet to the same standard, whether it is Hapkido or not.. I watch a persons actions and if I see that they carry themselves with dishonor, deciet, etc. then I will have nothing to do with them no matter WHO THEY KNOW OR ARE AFFILIATED WITH! 3. If I view someone being dishonorable or decietful to any of my friends or family then I also will NEVER have anything to do with them no matter what their title becomes or who they are. For example; some individuals in Florida have carried themselves with dishonor, deciet, and in no way exemplify what I believe to be the standards in which real men carry themselves. These individuals have dishonored themselves by bickering and doing underhanded acts against some of my friends such as Master Harold Whalen, Master Mike McCarty. In closing just let me say that if certain individuals in Florida have future Hapkido events I would NEVER attend any of them. There is an old country saying that if you lay with dogs you end up with fleas... well I believe that is one to live your life by and I refuse to bend my morals, ethics, or sense of right and wrong just because some puffed up self appointed dignitary invites some real Hapkido Grandmasters to his Dojang. My two cents, Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Share your photos without swamping your Inbox. Get Hotmail Extra Storage today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:39:14 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Making_Choices?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: "......> are relative to all the controversy. I think the up coming visit by Oh See > Lim to Florida, hosted in part by ... Would you be surprised if at the last minute we hear that Oh Se-lim isn't showing up at in Florida after all?......" Not at all, Ray. I almost expect that something like that might happen at the very last minute. However, I still believe that folks need to take a kind of "internal inventory" to see where they are with this. Even the non- HKD people, I think need to be paying attention as putting ones' actions where ones' words are is, for me, a pretty significant part of MA training. ".......Finally, the rest of the KMA leadership have been deathly quiet about all of the stuff going on with the KHF. And exactly where should they be expressing their views? In the pages of rags like Black Belt and TKD Times... or directly to the likes of Oh Se-lim and the KHF......" These are not gueppies new to the KMA. If folks want to make their opinions known they know where to speak-up or can find out. I would take some courage to make their positions known, but I thought that was part of what we train for, yes? Or do we have to stop referring to the "KMA" and start talking about the "CYA" instead? :-) Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:50:47 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Another_Illusion_Killed_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Keith: ".....Black isn't the last level. A lot of kids dont have enough respect for their uniform, their belt, and what not, But I just dont understand how some one can simply brush off and forget the true meaning of a black belt. It just seems to me that some students need to wake up and open their eyes! Am I alone on this one? or do other people see what I mean?....." No, your not alone, but, like me, I think you need to wake-up and smell the perspiration. Not a small part of the KMA has to do with image and what people want other to believe about them. Wearing a Black Belt has become just one more piece of constuming in Martial Theatre. For some old farts like me, there is still quite a bit of "martial" in "Korean Martial Arts" which means that I have selected a way of living and dealing with life not quite like others. That Black cotton around my middle, with our without the yellow bars, identifies me as someone who has made that commitment. I don't do it for the money, or the recognition, or the kudos. I do it and continue to do it because I have said I would and its what I want to do. Ask yourself why more people in positions of leadership don't do more in the way of "guidance" as do folks like JR, Rudy and Dr. Kimm? Why isn't there more material published for folks at the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Dan levels? Why aren't more organizations run with greater professionalism and to the greater good of the membership. Fact is that most folks in leadership are simply playing to what most people are expressing as their expectations. There is a great deal of material in the Korean Martial Arts to be learned and taken seriously, but if you think waiting around for most of the KMA leadership is going to get done, I wouldn't hold your breath. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Jason E. Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Oct. 25 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:29:24 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Agreed, the right amount of time for us to recover form the Jackson Seminar before we go down to Houston for a little Mat fun! Regards, Jason > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffery Dean Sr. [mailto:isaiah4031@ev1.net] > Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 1:39 PM > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] Oct. 25 > > Master West, > > I look foreward to seeing you, the stealthvan and the crew at Master > Hodders. > The material I gain from these seminars helps to keep motivated and one > step > ahead of the younger students. > > Tang Soo > > Dean Sr. > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.519 / Virus Database: 317 - Release Date: 9/17/2003 > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:23:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "L. Veuleman" To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] One day seminars Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray, West, etc. Can you guys tell me what the one day semiars are like, such as the upcoming one at Hodders? I know the big Jackson event is a bunch of one hour clinics to make up the seminar, so how are the one day events ran, or how will this perticular one structured? Charlie V. ************** L. Charles Veuleman - http://www.bluewavekarate.com Natchitoches Karate Institute - Chittim Jordan Tae Kwon Do 318-356-7727 Natchitoches Kustom Inks - Quality Screen Printing 318-332-1676 204 Rapides Drive Natchitoches, LA 71457 --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Denise" To: Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:09:22 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Has Black Belt Lost Its Meaning? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Keith said: "Black isn't the last level. A lot of kids dont have enough respect for their uniform, their belt, and what not, But I just dont understand how some one can simply brush off and forget the true meaning of a black belt. It just seems to me that some students need to wake up and open their eyes! Am I alone on this one? or do other people see what I mean?" Yes, Keith. I see what you mean and think that manymany others do, too. Please bear with my lengthy reply. I'm usually in the lurk mode -- as there are so many here with more experience than I, but this issue seems to surface s-o-o-o frequently that I feel compelled to share my own approach to rank advancement. This issue just won't go away unless we, ourselves, do something about it -- in whatever way works best in our own situation. I believe that we who make the decisions in our own schools are free, competent, intelligent, experienced individuals -- why-oh-why do we do things without -- as they say -- "thinking outside the box"? And why do we look to others to make our decisions for us or to blame for the way things are? We make things the way they are. Sorry, that's a rant of mine. Might I share some of the content of my student handbooks that explains my position on this issue: "Advancement in the martial arts involves periodic rank testing to help identify where one is in his/her own progress towards martial and personal mastery. As a natural part of this process, your instructor will invite you to test for advancement in rank when she believes that you are ready to move to another level of learning and responsibility in your study of the martial arts. . . . Time and class requirements are different for children, young adults and adults. This is partly because there are no "junior" ranks in Tang Soo Do. Children and young adults simply need more time than most adults to attain the level of maturity expected to achieve the goal of black belt." "How Long Will it Take to Achieve My Black Belt? Tang Soo Do progress is visibly measured by the color of one's belt. One begins with the white belt at the 10th Gup rank, and progresses through the gup ranks to 1st Gup prior to the test for Cho Dan (Black Belt). This can take from the minimum time of 4 years to "as long as it takes." The journey is what matters. The rank is merely a representation of one's progress on the martial path. However, earning one's Black Belt is a significant, hard-earned accomplishment, available to many yet accomplished by few. If it were easy, everyone would do it." "Classes are separated by age & rank. The learning needs of young children are much different than those of young adults & adults, . . . Although all students regardless of age learn the same physical techniques, young children begin their training in a class geared to them. . . . Once a child has earned his/her red belt, s/he automatically moves to the Young Adult & Adult Mixed Rank class. At this stage of his/her martial career, s/he is ready for a more intense approach to the training. . . . Martial training is a process, not an event. Achieving the goal of Black Belt takes longer for some than for others, but that goal is not an end, only one of many steps along the path of martial (self) mastery. Commitment to the process is necessary, however, in order to reap the benefits from the experience." OK, so our kids take from 6 - 8 years to achieve Dan rank. And they absolutely understand -- en route -- just what this means and what's expected of them. And they don't get there unless they do. Are they as wise or as physically strong as adults? Well, of course not. But they possess the requisite skills and carry themselves with integrity and honor and appreciate just what it is they might be accomplishing. Training with the adults from the time of either red belt or (by my determination) the approporate level of maturity -- well, this surely has an effect on their approach to their process. Are they still just kids who want to have fun? Of course, but so are the adults with whom they share the training! But we don't treat them like kids once they're there. Do they all find this easy? Nope. Do we support and guide them through the process? Yup. Do they all make it? Nope. But everyone in the school -- parents, too -- take this journey seriously. We've probably not promoted anyone prior to 12 or 13 years of age, but by that time, that young person would have been training for 6 to 8 years, at least 3 of them with the adults. And I'm proud of every one of them. So is our community. My mindset? "The buck stops here." Thanks for reading! Hope this helps . . . someone:) Denise --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest