Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:07:13 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #409 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Great loss (Rudy Timmerman) 2. Re: Black belt, what do you consider a good age? (K. Barends) 3. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Business_Ploy=3F=3F?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 4. dojang in San Francisco (Davide Sorrentino) 5. duped emails (Ray Terry) 6. Re: How about talking about your other end? (Denise) 7. Adaptation (Rudy Timmerman) 8. Re:kids program (Denise) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 01:35:53 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Great loss Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net JR and friends of Renee: Albeit a bit late due to my trip to Australia, the members of the National Korean Martial Arts Association and myself offer our most heartfelt condolences to the West family and the many friends of Master Renee West. Had it been possible, we would have been there to share the joy of celebrating Renee's life. When we fist met Master Renee in Wisconsin a few years ago, she and my student Master Rhonda MacLeod formed an instant and great relationship that later developed into the strong bond between JR and myself enjoy today. We will treasure that first meeting forever. Warmest personal regards, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:29:55 +0200 From: "K. Barends" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Black belt, what do you consider a good age? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net With all the discussion about young children getting black belts. I wondered, what do you consider the minimum age one can receive a black belt? And another question directly related, how many years should one have to train to become a black belt. Or let me put it differently. How do you make difference between students who train once or twice a week, and those who show up every day? In the west I think many students test for their first dan after 4-6 years of training. And on average they probably train 1,2 or 3 times a week. Say (hypotethically), I would start a one year long programm. You enter in January and it finishes in December. In this year stay at my house. We get up every morning at six and start training for about two hours. We have breakfast, some coffee. And in the moring we practice for another two ours. Lunch, some rest. Again two hours of training. Rest, diner, spend the night attending regular classes. Day in, day out. Could I award a student his black belt after training 'just' one year??? -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:15:41 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Business_Ploy=3F=3F?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Eddie: ".....I noticed that some organizations like the International Tae Kwon Do Alliance (ITA/Tae Kwon Do Plus) and others have sub-classifications for Dan Grades, such as Probationary, Decided and Senior Ranks... Ie..." I think I would side with what you said in your post but I need to keep in mind that I am not a TKD/TSD practitioner so I need to be careful that I am not overlooking some aspect of these arts that might be serviced by such an arrangement. Maybe some of the other folks who have more experience in these arts could give me a better idea if there is something that such an arrangement does for their students that is not readily apparent. I know that in Hapkido there are sometimes candidate belts in anticipation of earning a higher grade, but even that is not consistent all the way across the kwans (except maybe that final rank just before making BB). Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Davide Sorrentino" To: Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:33:39 +0200 Subject: [The_Dojang] dojang in San Francisco Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi to all! I'm Davide Sorrentino, from Naples, Italy; In november, after my degree, i'd like to come to work and learn english in the States, in San Francisco, staying there for 1 year... I'm III° dan black belt in Taekwondo wtf and i'm practicing full contact karate too (kyokushin), so i'd like to know if there are taekwondo/korean karate dojang and kyokushinkai dojo in San Francisco...and if it's possible to find a job like trainer in some dojangs I'd like to have exact informations! Thanks a lot!!!!!!!!!!! Davide Sorrentino --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] duped emails Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Folks, Yes, I too have noticed the email dups that have been sent out over the last week. It all goes back to the problems the list experienced early last week. Nothing to do but just delete the extras. They seem to be centering around 16 September and 17 September. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Denise" To: Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:01:28 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: How about talking about your other end? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Bruce- > My apologies in advance for my title sounding a bit off color. Bwaaaahahahaha :-D . . . obviously, no offense taken. > How old is your oldest Black Belt and how long have they trained with you? > How long have they trained in the KMA? Do you expect them to be with you in > another 5 years? How about 10 years? How about the rest of their lives? Well, that one's easy. My oldest Black Belt is a 54 year old 4th Dan. He's been training in TSD for 15 years, 10 of them with me and our son. Since he's my husband (33 years), I do expect him to be with me . . . for the rest of his life:-) Otherwise, I've several Dans, who, as I like to say "WON'T LEAVE!!" (They make me work really hard.) All have been training between 6 and 13 years. > Now before you get nervous, I am not trying to put you on the spot, 'kay? Thanks for the pre-emptor, but I do understand and appreciate your "> but I wonder" > how many people find a home in the KMA and do > they continue to demonstrate this the rest of their lives or do they sorta > grow out of it? How young can a person be when they actually make the > commitment to KMA as what they want to focus on compared to other hobby > activities? In my experience, the kids stay until they move on to something else, whether that's some other athletic-type or academic endeavor(s). We probably have the same attrition rate as most schools. But, our approach to the expected commitment makes it easier for students (and their families) to persist for perhaps a bit longer in terms of years, although perhaps with fewer classes during that time than they might attend elsewhere (where the expected commitment is more intense). From our handbook, the first sentences from this paragraph were omitted from my previous post: "What if my child wants to play a sport, be in a play, etc.? What if I travel on business or must work extra hours at my job, etc.? We recommend consistent training, 2-days/week, year-round. HOWEVER, we also encourage students to be active, contributing members of their communities. This may result in occasional breaks in attendance for some academic, athletic, or family activity. Martial training is a process, not an event. Achieving the goal of Black Belt takes longer for some than for others, but that goal is not an end, only one of many steps along the path of martial (self) mastery. Commitment to the process is necessary, however, in order to reap the benefits from the experience." Thus, several of our students take the summers off. Lots take off baseball/softball season. Some for theatrical or "robotic" commitments or whatever. But they make a commitment to return. Unless the family is too stressed out by this (martial art) extra time-stealer. Or unless they want to try something else. We have a whole lot of activities available to kids in this community. And I believe that they should try all kinds of stuff. How will anyone find out that they have an interest in and even a talent for a sport or debate or robotics team or whatever -- unless they give it a shot? And they're reminded that we'll be here when/if they're ready to return. Loads of them do. Some don't. But, given our approach, they all take something positive with them from their experience -- and many of them return to visit just to say thanks for that. However, we had a new 7 year old student enroll yesterday whose life goal is to have his own dojang in Hawaii when he grows up. So, who knows the answer to your question: "> How young can a person be when they actually make the > commitment to KMA as what they want to focus on compared to other hobby > activities?" Time will tell, no?:) But, I'll be quite happy to fly in to teach a seminar now and then -- as the "revered reallyreally old Master!!" Just have the handicapped parking spaces and wheelchair ready:-D As for the adults, I've "lost" a few -- only one to just what you describe as "growing out of it." All the others had way too much going on in their lives and just couldn't fit this in. But some of those plan to return once their kids are grown and they find themselves with more free time. Once kids hit college age, they all leave this town. So I lose them -- except right now we have one off in the USAF and another in college -- both of whom come back to class at every opportunity when they're home. Beyond all that, here's a personal caveat that addresses your question: > how many people find a home in the KMA and do > they continue to demonstrate this the rest of their lives or do they sorta > grow out of it? Given my own (past) struggles with organizational issues, honestly, if I didn't have a school with students to whom I am responsible for both a present and a future, I probably would have left this path myself quite some time ago. Or at least moved on to a different martial art. (different issue, different discussion) As your question seems to imply, why the heck do people stay this course? In my own students' case (particularly the adults and those who grow into adults here), none of them are interested in the competitive aspect of the martial arts (a significant "piece" of most TSD schools' curricula). None of them is too concerned with the more "intense" aspect of self-defense. Each and every one of them wants to train hard (get a good workout), study this art (pretty much limited to what they get from me in class), learn to defend themselves (and their families), develop skill with the techniques (especially the "fun stuff"), have fun and enjoy sharing the whole experience with other like-minded folks. Since everyone needs to get up and go to work or school the next morning (or tonight right after class), they want to train hard, but not leave injured. Stuff happens, but we don't revel in the injury thing. No "badges" here. No wimps, either:) So, I dunno, maybe we're not mainstream? But it works. And, like I say, I have to work really hard as those seniors are always nipping at my heels, asking questions, posing dilemmas for me to sort out, etc. Undoubtedly no different than anyone else running a school. But sometimes I feel like that "buck" doesn't just stop here, it lands on my head! Although I don't post much, I've learned so much from those who post to this forum. You've all been a "lifeline" through the unsettled time. Now, with our membership in the USKMAF that allows us to have a direct relationship with the awesome Grandmaster JR West, the awesome Master McHenry and legions of awesome martial artists and instructors, well it all got a lot easier. And a whole lot more fun. OK, so I do go on. My time's way past up. But I'm a bit excited this morning since the RED SOX clinched a wild-card berth!!! Life is good. Bruce, thanks for your support and the opportunity for a discussion. I hope my mental meandering might be of help to you, or someone. Take care- Denise --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:02:05 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Adaptation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello George: Thanks for the update, and sorry I was not able to get back to you sooner... I was away. > The rigidity in our org. is only in what is taught,how and when. > Personal creativity is not stifled to maintain "clones". After a > student > knows the system, they have to be free to choose techniques that suit > their > body type, agressivness,etc. All are taught the whole system, then make > their own choices as to what one might employ in a given situation. GM > Kim > even encourages all students to study and learn as much as possible > any type > of related material. Looks like your group has a pretty good handle on things. Keeping traditions and allowing for some individuality at the same time is a struggle, but IMHO, it is important to keep from making clones as you say. This is pretty much the same way I teach myself, and it obviously CAN be done. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Denise" To: Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:11:08 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:kids program Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Danny- > I work the kids program very similar in my > school. Takes 6 to 8 years. Do the kids get restless? From time to time some > do. Particularly when their friends who study in another school get a black > belt in 18 months. But then, when they have a chance to test their skills, they > are very happy. Thanks for sharing that we share the same approach. It does help to know that there are other like-minded folks out there. The determination that "If you build it, they will come" keeps panning out. Depends on whom you want your "they" to be, I guess. Take care- Denise --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest