Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:55:09 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #410 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Macs description (L. Veuleman) 2. Re: Re: Black belt, what do you consider a good age? (Ray Terry) 3. Re: dojang in San Francisco (Ray Terry) 4. black belt after training 'just' one year (Chuck) 5. re: twice a week vs. daily (Dr. Daryl Covington) 6. blackbelt kids (freddy tapia) 7. Has Black Belt Lost Its Meaning? (Todd) 8. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Using_the_"C"_Word......?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 9. Day Three Results from World Championships (fwd) (Ray Terry) 10. Re: Using the "C" Word...... (Denise) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:58:46 -0700 (PDT) From: "L. Veuleman" To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Macs description Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Mac, Thanks a bunch for the response. So its just one long class with a handful of instructors running it? Sounds good to me. I didn't know if they tried to do like a 'mini' jackson, you know, 3 different groups going at a time, Rudy breakin stuff in the parking lot, etc. I am already preparing a crew, and if they don't make ends meet and come this time, it will be bad. Very bad.... I am guessing you and Ms. Mindy will be there, since it is so close, am I right? On an unrelated note, I just promoted to 3rd Gup brown belt the third student under me to ever reach this rank (I have trained other brown belts, but they were from when my instructor 'retired', these three have been with me only from white belt up). It was a great test, and his parents (he is 15) always enjoy seeing him catch a beatdown during testing ( i think). He should be present at all the throw fests from now on. YITMA Charlie Veuleman ************** L. Charles Veuleman - http://www.bluewavekarate.com Natchitoches Karate Institute - Chittim Jordan Tae Kwon Do 318-356-7727 Natchitoches Kustom Inks - Quality Screen Printing 318-332-1676 204 Rapides Drive Natchitoches, LA 71457 --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Black belt, what do you consider a good age? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:10:57 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > With all the discussion about young children getting black belts. > I wondered, what do you consider the minimum age one can receive a > black belt? ~14 ~16... Somewhere in there. > You enter in January and it finishes in December. > In this year stay at my house. We get up every morning at six and start > training for about two hours. > We have breakfast, some coffee. And in the moring we practice for > another two ours. > Lunch, some rest. Again two hours of training. Rest, diner, spend the > night attending regular classes. > Day in, day out. > Could I award a student his black belt after training 'just' one year??? Yes. Assuming they meet all other requirements. Just because someone sits through a class doesn't mean they learn and understand the material. IMO Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] dojang in San Francisco To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I'm Davide Sorrentino, from Naples, Italy; > In november, after my degree, i'd like to come to work and learn english in > the States, in San Francisco, staying there for 1 year... > I'm III° dan black belt in Taekwondo wtf and i'm practicing full contact > karate too (kyokushin), so i'd like to know if there are taekwondo/korean > karate dojang and kyokushinkai dojo in San Francisco...and if it's possible to > find a job like trainer in some dojangs Hi David, There are a ton or two of TKD dojangs in San Francisco. You might check out Bill Dewart's Academy of Taekwondo at Oak and Scott Streets. He is a long time TKD teacher and head of the AAU TKD group for this region of the US. Good luck. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Chuck" To: Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:33:13 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] black belt after training 'just' one year Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In response to how long or how young to award a Black Belt. I started training 22 years ago in Shotokan. My Instructor had trained for 10 hours a day, six days a week for 11 months and was awarded his Black Belt at the age of 19. When I started training with him he was in his mid 20s and ranked #11 in the US in shotokan. I currently train and Instruct in TKD and had 12 years experience when I started. I trained approximately 3-4 times a week and was awarded my Black Belt in 2 years 11 months (Kukkiwon). It usually takes those starting out with no experience about five years to reach Black Belt if they train 2-3 times per week and attend tournaments and assist in class. If they go beyond that they can make it in less time. We do not promote Black Belt under 15 years old however we do give Poom (Kukkiwon) Belts. I am a firm believer that each student progresses based on their abilities but also in line with the guidelines of the school. We do have some special promotions which are rare and never more than one level. Chuck --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:55:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] re: twice a week vs. daily Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My daughter has trained a minimum of 2 hours a day for the last 4.5 years. She started at a young age and loved it, and continues to love it. She has yet to reach Jr. High. WIth all this training, she is but a green belt. Why? Many reasons. Mainly, I, as her instructor, want her to examplify what a black belt should be. "This ain't T-Ball" --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:05:25 -0700 (PDT) From: freddy tapia To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] blackbelt kids Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net i have to agree on kids having black belts may be shouldnt have them, but you also have to consider that having a blackbelt is the ability to master your physical fitness. Ofcourse kids will master this and they will absorb they kata forms if any because they are young. it is hard for me (18) to even do a split, but a 8 yeard old can do it. Kids have more flexibility so they are able to perform rigoruous kicks or forms. I asssume that kids will master their physical potential first than they do with their mind, and its only natural. it. I would like to hear other people's input. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:47:10 +1000 From: Todd Subject: [The_Dojang] Has Black Belt Lost Its Meaning? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Here! Here! I think Keith has expressed this issue of lack of respect for the meaning of blackbelt very well. Although ambition is a noble attribute, it is still crucial even in this "day and age", to stop and reflect on the true value of a blackbelt and the rank that it signifies. My 2cents worth.............. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:17:24 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Using_the_"C"_Word......?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Denise and Klaas: I am jotting off this post to you both at once because I think that both of you are dancing on the same issue as I am working to raise myself. Klaas, you asked at what minimum age a person might earn a Black Belt. Denise, you gave some good examples of how Black Belts at your school deport themselves. For myself, the point that I am working to make is that to me a Black Belt is a sign of committment, so I think what I am poking around at is what does "committment" to Korean Martial Arts---- or ANY martial arts mean to folks? In my case, IF I were to earn my 4th Dan next year I would have to wait 6 years until I tested for my 5th Dan--- and yes I mean TESTED. Then I would need to wait seven years before testing for 6th Dan. What would you think would keep me invested in the KMA? It certainly isn't rapid advancement in rank! Is the shine off of Black Belts because getting one, easily, means that a person can sport the trappings of being a committed martial artist without actually BEING committed year after year? Or maybe a Black Belt has lost its shine because people are not as easily "wowed" by it, at first sight, as they may have been years ago. But lets take this one step farther and make it real personal. To what degree does one committ to KMA and to what degree does one committ to the teacher/organization? By this I mean (using myself) that I could train in KMA the rest of my life and never talk to another living soul. Would THAT be committment? I could also blow-off training and just make it to the Internationales twice a year--- for the buffet. Still committment? Comments? Thoughts? Is there a point at which the KMA or the organization or the teacher is no longer worthy of my committment? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Day Three Results from World Championships (fwd) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Day Three Results Welter Weight Division Steven Lopez Round one beat Romania Round two beat Greece Round three beat Japan in Quarter Finals Round four beat Spain in Semi Finals Round five beat Germany taking the Gold in Finals Simona Hradil Round one beat Canada Round two lost to Germany Fin Weight Division Charles Smith Round one beat Austria Roung two lost to Phillipines Mandy Meloon Round one beat Russia Round two beat Cyprus Round three lost to Spain in Quarter Finals US Taekwondo Union One Olympic Plaza Ste 104C Colorado Springs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Denise" To: Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 19:49:03 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Using the "C" Word...... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Bruce- I'm struggling to remain coherent with this reply, so please bear with me. > you > gave some good examples of how Black Belts at your school deport > themselves They're committed to themselves and the values upon which they act. > to me a > Black Belt is a sign of committment, so I think what I am poking around at > is what does "committment" to Korean Martial Arts---- or ANY martial arts > mean to folks? Martial arts are just a part of one's life. Not the be-all and end all. Cultural progress has happened. We no longer "serve" a master - other than the deity of one's belief system. The instructor of any martial art bears the responsibility to ensure the pure transmission of his/her art. Whatever constitutes a ryu and however the system is organized (teacher-student, larger organization, whatever) somehow someone eventually inherits the art and some are licensed to transmit it. And all students are expected to learn and understand what they are given by their instructor and keep it "pure." Now, as to the KMA. Show me a "pure" KMA ryu. What the heck could we be committed to preserve? I'm struggling - still and for a long time to come - to figure out just what the essence of the Tang Soo Do I'm studying and transmitting IS! Am I committed to this process? Well, yes. But why? Because I am dedicated to my students development, and because I'd also like to know why I breathe this way here and that way there. Or is it that way here and this way there? I don't always know yet. Why? This is a new art, after all, still in flux. Some instructors teach it one way, others the other. It could also very well be that it's because I just haven't trained long enough to figure it out for myself. (Sigh, I should only live that long.) I'm interested in my students' commitment to themselves and their values. The "key concepts" that underlie our TSD philosophy work pretty well to delineate some values related to m/a training and life - courage, endurance/patience, humility, honesty, concentration/focus/mind-body-spirit unity, breath control, power control, tension and relaxation, speed control. They can be extrapolated out and combined to touch on a lot of broader issues. So, we have the external (physical) and internal (mental-spiritual). Means they need to be committed to doing what they're supposed to do to learn well and therefore "do" the art well. Why? So it will be effective. And so they'll live a long, healthy life . . ."and so an eternal spring." Now, are they respectful of and loyal to me, their instructor? You bet'cha. Why? Partly because they choose to because they know it's right (according to their value system) and partly because I'm respectful of and loyal to them - to creating a situation in which they can accomplish what they're supposed to. Why? Because that's my responsibility as the teacher. Kind of Confucian, I guess. I'm just doing my job. They're just doing theirs. > But lets take this one step farther and make it real personal. To what > degree does one committ to KMA and to what degree does one committ to > the teacher/organization?. . . Is there a point at which the KMA or the organization or the teacher is no longer worthy of my committment? Who's to define YOUR commitment? In my value system, it's YOU. And to just exactly WHAT is it that you are committing yourself? >From my personal perspective . . . To the KMA? Am I committed to Tang Soo Do? Not the way I once thought. But I'm committed to continue studying and practicing it - partly because of my responsibility to my students. But it's just a martial art - made up of techniques that someone (GM Hwang Kee) organized based on his own talents, motivations and philosophy. Brilliant? Many think so! Yet some of those techniques were created by some of his senior students. Why are they there? Maybe because he, as their instructor, knew that they needed to have a little leeway to exercise some creativity and grow beyond his sphere without leaving his school or organization. Does that ever happen? Yup. Did that happen in this situation? Don't know, but if it did, then I learned and still "transmit" sets of techniques that got included in the curriculum so somebody's ego could be stroked? How committed am I to be to that? It's not a religion. And once someone learns and takes from it all that they choose, then it's time for them to move on and enjoy something else. To the Instructor? The foundational relationship in the martial arts is that between the instructor and student. End of story. That "team" decides just what the heck they're committed to. A huge reason that so many are so frustrated with large organizations is that the organizations insert themselves into that relationship. Ugly situation. (That discussion's w-a-a-y too long for this.) Anyway, if one chooses to enjoy a martial instructor-student relationship, then (in my value system) a complete commitment to that relationship is essential. Otherwise, you might as well just buy the tapes. Now, as one grows in skills and knowledge and wisdom, the (wise) instructor-student relationship will also mature. The instructor will become more of a mentor to the adult martial artist who has internalized the techniques and the attendant philosophy of the particular art. The relationship will persist, but within a different framework. Yet the giri (sorry, don't know the Korean equivalent) - duty/obligation - that one has as the student to the instructor is life-long. And it's up to the adult student to choose just how to follow through with that obligation (even if one has chosen to move on to enjoy something else, having exhausted their commitment either to the process, the art or the instructor). Again, if it were I in that situation, I'd decide, based on MY values and knowledge. (been there, doing that:) To the Organization? Ummm . . . which one? If your chosen instructor is part of a larger organization, then you are, too, and should (in my value system) be committed to the organization and its goals -- partly because of your commitment to your instructor. So, Bruce, I guess my point is that - SINCE YOU ASKED - it's for YOU to decide about your commitment. And if your decision works for the person who would be your instructor, then you've got a match! If not, then you have to keep looking. As to the organization, samesame. If you are choosing an organization with which to affiliate, then it's for you to decide just how committed you will be to its' values, purposes, goals, leadership and membership. Can you live with yourself if, as you say: > (using myself) that I could train in > KMA the rest of my life and never talk to another living soul. Would THAT > be committment? I could also blow-off training and just make it to the > Internationales twice a year--- for the buffet. Still committment? That's your business. Not for me to judge. Or anyone else for that matter. Except your instructor, if you're fortunate enough to find/have one. Or the organization if you choose to enroll in one that will accept your choice of commitment. (Can't imagine you being willing to be part of an organization that would accept grazing at the buffet 2x/year as your level of participation:) I'm committed to me - to what it means to me to be me. And I'm committed to my students. Therefore, now that I've chosen to enroll in the USKMAF and Grandmaster JR West and Master Mac have graciously agreed to put up with me, then in my value system, I have a responsibility to be respectful and loyal to each of them (and the organization and its leadership and membership). That means that I choose to follow through with each of their expectations for our relationships. Otherwise (in my value system) I'm a leach. > What would you think would keep me invested in the KMA? It certainly isn't > rapid advancement in rank! Is the shine off of Black Belts because getting > one, easily, means that a person can sport the trappings of being a > committed martial artist without actually BEING committed year after year? > Or maybe a Black Belt has lost its shine because people are not as > easily "wowed" by it, at first sight, as they may have been years ago. I guess I've chosen to live in a (somewhat self-created) world where the black belt is respected and means what we believe it should. As far as what's to keep you invested in the KMA? Who knows? Do you love getting on the mat and playing with what you know in order to figure out what you don't? Do you love sharing this experience with other like-minded people? Or are you more "puritanical" in your approach -- that "this is serious WORK, darnit. Let's get to it." However you approach it, it's whatever floats your boat!! People stay until they're done. In my experience, it's really that simple. Well Bruce, I don't know if this even begins to answer your questions. But thanks for giving me the opportunity to try to assist you in your quest. Take care, Denise --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest