Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 13:54:11 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #418 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Today's Topics: 1. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Meaning_of_a_Black_Belt_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 2. RE: Loyalty (Thomas Gordon) 3. Training in Korea (andrew pratt) 4. RE: Loyalty (Buffy) 5. Re: Black belt - some thoughts (K. Barends) 6. About kwang sik myung video tapes (gaby noufaily) 7. Thomas...get all the facts before you display you ignorance (J T) 8. Science of Martial Arts Training book (adam flanders) 9. Poor quality of instruction... (Manuel Maldonado) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:26:16 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Meaning_of_a_Black_Belt_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Anthony: I think I understand what you are saying about these extended and protracted journeys that take us up the mountain to the rarified atmosphere where Balck Belts reign. OK, sure there has been some real exaggeration in these instances. But how about if we flip the coin over and ask the other question. How is it that the Koreans are not more protective of their culture? I am NOT condoning much of the embellished curriculums that require all sorts of super-human excess in the name of proving oneself. Hell, Lifes' hard enough all by itself without making it harder and any student can always make his training harder for himself. No, what I am talking about are the folks who have made a business of selling rank to the point that having a Black Belt, in the World view, has little regard at all. Certainly, any person can go out and buy a trophy and identify themselves as a champion of one sort or another and we all know they are only kidding themselves. However, a Black Belt is symbolic of some greater sacrifice and dedication. If it weren't noone would want one. However, I am identifying those folks who TRADE on that symbolism instead of passing along high standards that would justify such symbolism. More than most, then, I find fault with the Korean nationals themselves for having such cavalier attitudes towards institutions of their own culture. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Loyalty Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:38:37 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Chief Master Timmerman, I have to say, our similarities is rather uncanny. I too dealt with an instructor that didn't understand that loyalty went both ways. I won't go in details here on a public list but it was very discouraging. It made me a better instructor after an absolute nightmare of trying to break free of his grip. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 3 From: andrew pratt To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:09:41 +0900 Subject: [The_Dojang] Training in Korea Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The great puddudah himself deigned to ask: >> > I have often remarked that I expect an American TKD-stylist to be as > good or better than a 4th dan Korean stylist in terms of the raw > mechanics of the art, but the Korean has had the benefit of looking at > a wider picture and seeing the grand design. How did the BB journey > get lengthened and blown-up to such epic proportions? Where did this > huge imbalance begin? The Swordsman and English Teacher brings up a good point. Of course here in the US a student may only attend class 2 or 3 times a week and for a class as short as only 45 mins. Where I believe in Korea they are in class 5 or 6 times a week for N hours a class/night. Yes? So one year in Korea many approximate the 2 or 4 years in the US. << Right and wrong. Classes are held every night but most people only go for one class. Only the most dedicated, or mad, have the time and energy to attend more than one class a night. As for children, which is where I think this thread began, those classes function more as playschools or, more accurately, child minding services. Children at these classes might learn something but I wouldn't suggest for a minute that most learn respect, filial piety, good techniques, etc. that some on this list believe are taught in Korean martial arts. So, I disagree with Ray's simple maths that attending multiple classes per week equals a higher intake of skill. If the students aren't taught the difference between right and wrong technique the time they put in is irrelevant (opps, different thread). > My question is... has the time to attain Il Dan level in Korea stayed the same, increased or decreased when compared to 20 or 30 years ago? Just curious... < Haven't been here long enough to notice. Time in belt would seem to depend on the organisation more than anything, i.e. the minimum practise time between belts. My experience is that once the student has reached the minimum time period they are encouraged to test regardless of whether they feel ready. As to the swordsman and teacher, I hear he has the least troublesome classes in his school. His students are said to have a motto, 'failure is not an option'. Rumours suggest that troublesome pupils have to stretch each other's hair while the tutor practises his cutting technique on the ever-shortening strands.... Needless to say, students with the shortest hair tend to be the most well behaved. ;-) Andrew --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Buffy" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Loyalty Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 09:51:14 +0200 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net :o) or should it be :o( Humans make mistakes ... it seems like GMs are humans too. Your heart will tell you if you are doing something wrong - let's all listen to our hearts and not all the stories that go around. I will not talk to my GM about the details of this incidence - instead I will try not to end up in a situation like you guys. Thanks for the replies. Thomas. -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: Thomas Gordon [mailto:tgordon@gordonmartialarts.com] Sendt: 1. oktober 2003 04:39 Til: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Emne: RE: [The_Dojang] Loyalty Chief Master Timmerman, I have to say, our similarities is rather uncanny. I too dealt with an instructor that didn't understand that loyalty went both ways. I won't go in details here on a public list but it was very discouraging. It made me a better instructor after an absolute nightmare of trying to break free of his grip. Thomas Gordon Florida _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 11:16:36 +0200 From: "K. Barends" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Black belt - some thoughts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I would like to start by apologizing for my bad English. I can't express my thought very well ;-( First let me tell you something more about myself. So you can see where I come from. I live in the Netherlands, am 29 years old and started hapkido 16 years ago. I study the IHF style kind of hapkido also referred to as hankido. In 1993 (so after 6 years of training) I became a black belt (1st dan). In 1997 I went for the first time to Korea, and got my 2nd dan. In 1999 I received my 3rd dan. I don't consider myself a McDojangs student ;-) Here are my thought, correct me if I'm wrong. To me it seems that in many 'traditional' schools in the west, the emphasize seems to be on the amount of techniques learned. People have to know thousands of techniques. 40 defences againt wristgrad left/right, another 40 against wristgrab right/right. etc. etc. This is the way I got my black belt. I had to memorize a lot of techniques. The exam took several hours and I had to show everything from white belt up to 1st dan. I think this is a scenario many people will recognize. I didn't consider my black belt to be only the beginning. I knew lots of techniques, didn't I?? But what did I know? I just knew a lot of different movements. And when I looked at the curriculum for the next dan, I only saw things becoming a little more complicated and maybe some more weapon training. It was about learning more difficult tricks. Luckily I met with my current Korean master, who thaught me that the emphasize shouldn't be on the amount of techniques learned but the amount of 'how many times did you train one technique'. So I got into the doing basics for hundereds and thousand times a day. My teacher would say: Who would you fear more. A guy who has learned 50 different kicks in 2 years time or a guy who has trained his yopchagi a thousand times a day for a year time? The learning proces in the beginning seemed to be slow. I hardly learned any new techniques. But after a few years I discovered that with my solid knowledge of basics other things came naturally. Still I'm repeating the basics over and over again. The end. Can someone (I'm not talking about children now) become a black belt in one year time? (or one and half) I think yes, taking that they are willing to devote their time to it. In my experience you won't find many of this kind of students but the once who you do find will stick with you for a long long time. Students of me who 'only' train two to three times a week, will have to train for 4 to 5 years before they can test for a black belt. Just my 2cts. -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "gaby noufaily" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 14:36:22 +0200 Subject: [The_Dojang] About kwang sik myung video tapes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello everyone,I am intending to buy kwang sik myung hapkido video tapes, * defense punching * defense kicking * wrist part technique * front grab technique * the knife technique * 120 kick original hapkido I would like to know from you if you have bought some of these videos to give me a review and opinion about these tapes. thanks in advance.gaby  ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 06:27:05 -0700 (PDT) From: J T To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Thomas...get all the facts before you display you ignorance Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "If his is THAT guy I feel nothing but sadness for him ... he failed ... woundn't do as he was tolled ... a crystal clear example of how you should NOT repay your master for his teaching and trust. Thomas." First of all, I really get a kick out of reading opinoins from people who have no idea what took place between the two and yet form opinoins on one of the people without meeting them. I have spoken with GM De Alba about GM Lee and he never said a discouraging word about him, even after the fact that GM Lee slandered him all over the net as well as too others. Why don't you give him a call and ask GM De Alba his version prior to making such a statement. Secondly his system is extremely effective. He has since brought his training as well as his art to a whole new level that, in my opinoin, has surpassed what I have seen in the Hwa Rang Do. For comparrison why don't you buy a copy of Lee's combative knife and De Alba's combative knife and judge for yourself. Why don't you take a class of HRD from Lee and then a class of Farangmusul from De Alba and compare for yourself. Oh wait scratch that, in order for you to take HRD, you have to take 2 years of Tae Soo Do, before they will 'allow' you to take HRD, so you will have to invest a lot of time and money, before you get a chance to see HRD. Hmmmmmmm.... Hell, why don't you just hang out with GM De Alba and talk shop, you will find he is very humble, very knowledgable and bottom line one hell of guy who will treat you like family from day one. Bottom line Thomas, your statement was uncalled for and ignorant. If this is what your Master has taught you , then let me just say that it is YOU that I feel nothing but sadness for. Jeremy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "adam flanders" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 12:16:38 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Science of Martial Arts Training book Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Everybody, I recently finished reading Charles Staley's "Science of Martial Arts Training." I was wondering if anyone else had read this book and/or was familiar with his work? I found the concept about periodization and planning of training very interesting. I also found his principle of specificity very interesting which, among other things, he says you can realistically only train for one thing at a given time whether it be endurance, skill, speed, power, etc. and that therefore the athlete must follow a generalized program to gradual specificity of skill-sets in their macrocycle. I found this quote interesting: "Martial artists are well known for their extensive training regimes. In fact, the amount of time one puts into training is usually a matter of pride in martial art's circles. Over the years, interviews with top tournament stars suggest schedules typified by four to six-hour training sessions, often performed six or seven days a week! Those who have ever felt guilty or inadequate after reading accounts of such arduous training schedules will be pleased and surprised to learn that such regimes are not only unnecessary, but they're ineffective as well. As mentioned earlier, volume and intensity are mutually exclusive qualities by definition. In other words, if the quantity of training is high, the quality is low, and vice versa..." Anyone care to comment? Has anyone moved their traditional training regimens to one that more closely resembles a periodized training schedule. Any results? I also found him referencing Tom Kurz's (among others) various works. I've had very good success with some of the principles introduced by Mr. Kurz in the past, particularly in joint mobility and flexibility. Anyone care to comment? Thanks, Adam _________________________________________________________________ High-speed Internet access as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service providers in your area). Click here. https://broadband.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Manuel Maldonado" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 13:05:55 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Poor quality of instruction... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I don't know where to start this but here goes. Last night in class I was amazed at how "Lazy" my students were. They claimed that they were tired so I let up a bit. Their Hyungs, Combinations etc looked awfull man, I wanted to rip their heads off. On my drive home I thought to myself "I wonder how many students/instructors out there have this attitude as their norm?" I feel that the Martial Arts in general have sort of slacked off during the past three decades that I've been associated with them. I remember my Sa Bum Nim & Kwan Jang Nim even my Sensei used to use a shinai to hit us with if we slacked off. I'm reminded of one occation (when I lived in Korea) I was translating for a student, he was a GI that was in our school, when my Kwan Jang yelled out " Ip Ta Cho" Shut up. I kept on translating since he had said during an earlier class that I could I didn't think he was actually speaking to me. But when he said "Young-Ho Appa Ip Ta Cho" I knew I was in trouble. Well he made me do Koryo Poomse 100 times I stayed well after everybody else had left, I did it more than 100 times everytime that he said "Him Opso" (You have no power) I was to do that one over. I feel that a situation like that instills gratitude and Martial spirit in a student. Since I'm now ITF I'm sure that the only Poomse that I do remember is Koryo.. Some times, last night for example, I wanted to make my 5th gups do Choong-Gun 100 times. Of course we don't have the luxury of time as we did back in the 1980s. Anyway I feel that we as instructors need to instill this tradition that has been lost over the years bearing in mind the local laws of course I don't want none of you fine instructors out there to be sewed on my account. Again thank you for letting me vant my frustrations out on this forum. Tae Kwon! & Pil Sung! Manuel K. Maldonado http://devoted.to/Taekwondo _________________________________________________________________ Share your photos without swamping your Inbox. Get Hotmail Extra Storage today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest