Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 03:03:20 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #419 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. getting the facts straight (Ray Terry) 2. Goryeo Dynasty: Korea's Age of Enlightenment (918-1392) (Ray Terry) 3. sai/fork (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 4. Re: Meaning of a Black Belt? (jmchie@wideopenwest.com) 5. Black Belts (A. Boyd) 6. Re: Training in Korea (John Johnson) 7. Wisconsin school? (Sheree Goldstein) 8. Thomas, who is your GM? (J T) 9. Re: The Myung tapes (Beungood@aol.com) 10. Loyalty goes both ways (Rudy Timmerman) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] getting the facts straight Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "... get all the facts before you display you ignorance" Come on folks, lighten up a bit. Thanks. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Goryeo Dynasty: Korea's Age of Enlightenment (918-1392) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding... A spectacular exhibition of Koryo art, "Goryeo Dynasty: Korea's Age of Enlightenment (918-1392)" will be shown in the new Asian Art Museum, Chong Moon Lee Center for Asian Art and Culture, in San Francisco, curated by Dr Kumja Paik Kim, from 18 October 2003 until 10 January 2004. The accompanying book on Koryo art by several contributors will be published at the same time. The International Symposium will be also held on 18-19 October 2003 in the California State Building auditorium, 350 McAllister Street, San Francisco. The speakers and their papers are as follows: 18 October Lewis Lancaster, Keynote speaker: Goryeo Buddhist Art: Reflections and Memories Edward Shultz: Cultural History Ide Seinosuke: Buddhist Painting Youngsook Pak: Koryo or Qing? The question of Identification of an Illuminated Sutra in the National Palace Museum, Taipei 19 October Junghee Lee: Koryo Sculpture Choi Eung-chon: Metal Crafts Chung yang-Mo: Koryo Ceramics Kim Hongnam: Koryo Paintings and Ceramics Discussants: Ahn Hwi-joon, Yi song-mi, Kim Lena Anyone who is interested in this program, should please contact to the following person directly. Linda Inson Choy Curatorial Assistant Korean Art Asian Art Museum Chong-Moon Lee Center for Asian Art and Culture New Address: 200 Larkin Street San Francisco, CA 94102 Tel (415)581-3679 Fax (415)864-6705 www.asianart.org --__--__-- Message: 3 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 18:13:27 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] sai/fork Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net anyone know what the korean term for sai would be? thanks :) mel Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 4 From: jmchie@wideopenwest.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Meaning of a Black Belt? Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 17:52:59 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce wrote: "No, what I am talking about are the folks who have made a business of selling rank to the point that having a Black Belt, in the World view, has little regard at all." My two cents is that you cannot worry what everyone else thinks about the meaning of a black belt, or of one's ranking. It seems to me that to hold otherwise is a pursuit of vanity rather than of civic virtue. You can argue that someone purporting to be a black belt in Hapkido whose rank is purchased may reflect poorly on the art, and Bruce has argued that a black belt is symbolic of sacrifice and dedication. But to whom other than yourself is that important? You know what you had to go through, and you know that your skills can be demonstrated and survive any test of that ranking. What's more, you know that of your black belt in particular that public scrutiny of your training and study background will leave little or nothing additional to be desired. Someone who is a total fake, fraud and sham can be discerned by the serious student with little difficulty. It's also true that the fraud knows the value of their own belt. What about someone who genuinely trains, but is under an instructor who passes them along more quickly than yours did? Or with fewer requirements? They also have a black belt, and they know what they had to do to obtain it. I doubt many of the students who achieved their rank in this way are ashamed of their ranking--there is always someone who did more than you to get to the same rank. Do you then give your rank up to wherever you would be under their teacher? No, you do not. All of these levels of students and masters, and more, have existed forever. The more dedicated the student, the more likely they are to be diligent to discover the best source to achieve their training goals. If that goal is to carry on the art, some patience and research is all that is required to start to separate the wheat from the . . . er, other parts of the wheat plant that aren't as useful or beneficial. I see few long-term students that are not able to learn these distinctions if they apply themselves. I think in a way it is a very good thing. I would like to see a greater retreat from nationalization and standardization. The great teachers do not need these things to be known, or to verify their importance. Word of mouth, of men and women whose opinions you come to trust, draw you to those whose goals are the same. You may have to travel, and read, and claw your way to your goal. Many never will, but they never would have anyway, regardless of instructor. If I never left my town, I could buy myself to a dozen black belts in as many years. But what I know cannot be taken from me, even if part of what I know is that others worked harder for the same rank I hold. That's ok, because I could still be a yellow belt but I would still attend class because I love to learn and study Hapkido. I also agree with K. Barends--fear the person who can do 10 moves without thought, by instinct, with near flawless form. I am nowhere near there yet. Abstractly, any of those moves can be countered, but try it against someone who really knows them that way and it's very very hard. In a way that's not the best way to carry on knowledge of the entire art, but if carrying on the art is your only and sole goal then you are in a very small category of practitioners. I welcome response, by here or e-mail. Discourse is an excellent route to learning. Back to lurking :) Jim --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 21:31:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Black Belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, I'm not even sure your average layperson even bothers to formulate an opinion on what having a black belt is supposed to mean beyond, "good fighter." The TKD-Mom on the other hand formulates an opinion based on criteria which may elude us, but make good sense to her. There is a market for McDojangs... maybe it's the boy scouts of the new millenium. Kids train for belts instead of badges but they still have the opportunity to heed or ignore the wisdom of their elders. These goal-driven programs both key the attention toward achievement. If a person should happen to become an achiever as a result of this sort of thing, I feel it is a freak side-effect. With eyes always on the goal, how do we benefit from the sights presented by the journey? To be honest, I was never motivated by getting a black belt. I was, however, very motivated by testing because it let me see and learn new material. I got really excited by the way each new technique, concept or movement opened my eyes to what was really going on and what was really being taught. The journey through the layers of perception toward a purer vision of the art is what keeps me interested in my own study. When I am stuck and cannot figure something out or sense the truth of it, then I have difficulty. Belts and rank mean nothing to me, and in fact, strike me as a barrier to ego reduction and finding balance within yourself. I don't think I am the only one who feels that way so I don't agree that all MA students go out there looking to earn a black belt. I am 100% in agreement that it would be great if there was a clearly discernable difference between Korean, Chinese, and Japanese arts/culture and that someone in Korea was honestly categorizing and preserving these differences for posterity. I am also of the opinion that is their culture to change, preserve, fold, spindle, and mutilate as they see fit. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the overlap and borrowing we see so much today were prevalent throughout Korean history. Maybe, Bruce, they *are* preserving their culture. ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "John Johnson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Training in Korea Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 01:41:05 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net There's one thing I would like to comment on here. The idea that Koreans have "the benefit of looking at a wider picture and seeing the grand design" is a bit too generous. Koreans tend to see things how their superiors tell them to see them. This comes from the Confucian culture they adopted several hundred years ago. So, when they are told things like "the WTF is true Taekwondo" and "Taekwondo comes from the Hwa-rang", they believe it without question. Koreans don't see a wider picture of anything because they are not taught to thnk analytically and any sort of reasoning process. They are forced to sit in classes up to fourteen hours a day memorizing and regurgitating information in an outdated, rote-learning process. So, to make this brief, they are not given the information to see everything and are not taught the tools to search it out for themselves. In some ways, this is the Korean system of checks and balances for controlling power. The subject of how much time a person spends at the dojang in Korea is rather interesting until you examine one fact. While they can increase their physical skill dramatically by staying those extra hours a week (and let me tell you, their physical skills are amazing), they are not taught much else until they reach third degree black belt. Then, their masters teach them the philosophy and additional aspects other than kicking a pad a sixty times in 30 seconds. That is, if their masters leave their offices long enough to teach. Most martial art instructors teach a couple years untl they have several black belts to run their classes for them. They rarely do much more than conduct testings and manage the business. Yes, they still have what it takes and they still spend some time teaching and guiding, but I don't see them out on the mats like I have seen instructors in the States. In too many ways the business has taken over their passion for martial arts. John A. Johnson III, Independent III, Korea Hapkido Federation _________________________________________________________________ Instant message in style with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 22:17:52 -0400 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Sheree Goldstein Subject: [The_Dojang] Wisconsin school? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I will be traveling to Janesville, Wisconsin in a week or two on business, and would love to work out while I'm away. I am currently a bodan (black belt candidate, scheduled to test in February) in Taekwondo, and am also studying Hapkido. Our style is WTF, and I think we're pretty unique (strange?) in that we do Palgwe forms up to 1st Dan, and then add Taeguks for our 2nd Dan tests (and Koryo, might be a couple of others as well). Can anyone recommend a school within say half an hour drive of Janesville that might welcome a guest for a night or two? I looked on Yahoo, but didn't get much information, and certainly no recommendations. Thanks, Sheree --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 20:20:16 -0700 (PDT) From: J T To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Thomas, who is your GM? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "I will not talk to my GM about the details of this incidence " Is your GM Lee? Then it would at least make sense how you formed your original opinoin. Jeremy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 00:13:29 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The Myung tapes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 10/1/03 4:52:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Hello everyone,I am intending to buy kwang sik myung hapkido video tapes, * defense punching * defense kicking * wrist part technique * front grab technique * the knife technique * 120 kick original hapkido I would like to know from you if you have bought some of these videos to give me a review and opinion about these tapes. thanks in advance.gaby >>> These series of tapes are great and I think some of the best and most comprhensive tapes out there. Well worth the money.. JAck --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 00:53:04 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Loyalty goes both ways Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thomas writes: > I have to say, our similarities is rather uncanny. I too dealt with an > instructor that didn't understand that loyalty went both ways. I won't > go in details here on a public list but it was very discouraging. It > made me a better instructor after an absolute nightmare of trying to > break free of his grip. Hello Thomas: I think JR and I could both fill a tub with letters from folks who have encountered similar problems; however, this only means that you have to be a might careful when looking for a teacher or organization. There are some very good ones around of all origins:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest