Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 10:38:09 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #421 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Training_in_Korea?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 2. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_The_Korean_Mystery_Continues?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 3. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Dirty_Belts_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 4. Myung tapes (Ray Terry) 5. Re: Meaning of a Black Belt (Calvin Berlin) 6. Re:_GM_Myung_Tapes (Jesse Segovia) 7. belt ranks (J.R. West) 8. Re: Black Belt ? (jmchie@wideopenwest.com) 9. Away from Computer! (Michael Rowe) 10. Kuk Sool Textbook (Ali Alnasser) 11. Getting facts straight (J T) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 08:39:13 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Training_in_Korea?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear John: ".....So, to make this brief, they are not given the information to see everything and are not taught the tools to search it out for themselves. In some ways, this is the Korean system of checks and balances for controlling power....." Thanks, I needed that. Sometimes I don't think that I give all the credit needed to the fact that Korean culture, despite its Westernized trappings can be fundamentally different from things Stateside. Certainly, though, there must be a range of teachers, with some being more commercial and managerial while others are more hands-on and focused on the art. Do Korean practitioners take this into account or is it simply a matter of attending whatever school is in the neighborhood? Do the Koreans maintain networks which tend to recognized more accomplished or dedicated teachers over others, or are all teachers painted equally with the same brush? I can see where the Korean parent could drop his kid off at the local TKD school for training, but where do upper level practitioners go to refine their skills and expand their knowledge of a particular art? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 08:52:34 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_The_Korean_Mystery_Continues?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rudy and Thomas: ".......Thomas writes: > I have to say, our similarities is rather uncanny. I too dealt with an > instructor that didn't understand that loyalty went both ways. I won't > go in details here on a public list but it was very discouraging. It > made me a better instructor after an absolute nightmare of trying to > break free of his grip. Hello Thomas: I think JR and I could both fill a tub with letters from folks who have encountered similar problems; however, this only means that you have to be a might careful when looking for a teacher or organization. There are some very good ones around of all origins:) Sincerely, Rudy.............." There are a few aspects of Korean deportment that mystify me more than what you both have described. Even if one were to consider KMA from a solely commecial aspect one would assume that the head of an organization--- or a school--- would take care of his workforce in the way in which he expects the workforce to support him. Such a view is completely consistent with Confucian ethics AND good business sense. And if I were to go beyond this, it would be to comment at how animated a GM's response can be when his staff tire of being abused and breakaway. Do these people not understand the concept of "Service" or do they figure that their elevated positions and the rarified atmosphere of an office absolve them of having to provide support, guidance and management for their members? I wonder if such leaders have woven a cloth of romantic fuedal image so extensive that they have actually begun to believe it themselves. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 09:10:47 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Dirty_Belts_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jeremy: ".....I've heard that the 10 colored belt ranks in many martial arts systems is new. That originally, there was only one color -- white that darkened to black through the sweat and dirt of training......" Well, yes and no. If you take a look back into the Confucian traditions of Korea ther has always been a hierarchy of skill levels usually associated with various governmental examinations. There were also colors associated with vairous offices and even skill levels within those offices. The current use of dan-ranking and various guep or kyu ranks is generally attributed to Sensei Kano when he organized Judo as a way of more easily matching players of comparable skill-level together for competition (See: KODOKAN JUDO by Jigoro Kano). Its become pretty much a defacto standard across the Pacific Rim contries with various changes in color progression depending on the culture and the art. BTW: People have tried to research the idea of the "darkened white belt" and have come up empty. I chalk it up to another MA legend. FWIW: What I have found in my reasearch so far is that MA in the community was taught pretty much informally and with little structure. Were a person to become skilled, they would still have to take a standardized test before being able to use their skill in some position such as the military or police. Certainly someone who had training would have less trouble passing such a civil service examine but candidates still had to show that they knew what they were doing. The idea of moving through 10 levels of colored ranks and then 10 levels of Dan ranking is a function of the post-WW II MA world. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 07:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Myung tapes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Master Harold Whalen was the fall guy in all of the first > Myung tapes,,, kind of cool huh.. A very interesting bit of triva above... Another one... Master Whalen is the KHF's senior American master. Contrary to the claims of one chubby GM wannabe from down Florida way. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 09:57:48 -0500 From: "Calvin Berlin" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Meaning of a Black Belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Mark Seidel wrote "I can't recall one instance of anyone ever failing." I don't think it's fair to compare non failing to failing the CPA. First, at least at my dojang, my Master won't in courage you to test unless you could at least perform at a minimum standard. Now you can have a lengthy discussion on what a minimum standard should be, but I'll leave that for another day. My point here is that Universities don't say "gee we really don't think you are equipped to take the CPA test even though we took your money and gave you enough credits to give you our degree. We don't think those C's in your Audit classes will be sufficient enough to pass the CPA Audit test." So the under trained graduate goes in to take the CPA test when they had no real chance of passing. I would compare this to throwing a green or blue belt in front of a table Masters and having him run through a Black Belt test. The probability of this person performing at any minimum to pass would be extremely low. I have seen people who sat for the CPA and they barely understood the relationship between a debit and a credit. Oh, at our dojang people do fail, granted it is a small number, but maybe because going in they are somewhat prepared for what is going to be asked from them. My son didn't pass his red belt test because he didn't perform the board break test at the required minimum. We go back this Saturday to try that part of the test again. My 2 cents Pil Seung Cal Berlin ----------------------------------------------------- This electronic mail transmission contains information from P & H Mining Equipment which is confidential, and is intended only for the use of the proper Addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us immediately at the return address on this transmission, or by telephone at (414) 671-4400, and delete this message and any attachments from your system. Unauthorized use, copying, disclosing, distributing, or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this transmission is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. ----------------------------------------------------- <> --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 11:53:23 -0400 From: Jesse Segovia To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:_GM_Myung_Tapes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: >1.) The Gold Book. HAPKIDO - ART OF MASTERS is pretty dated. However, since >it was one of the first, if not THE first Hapkido book published in English >it would serve as a fine reference point for the state of the more Japanese- >influenced style of Hapkido arts circa 1976. > I disagree. 'Korean Hapkido - Ancient Art of Masters' is very dependent on 'Hapkido,' the first book published on Hapkido by Myung KwangShik and Kim JongTek under the direction of Ji HanJae. 'Hapkido' was only published in the Korean language; GM Kimm HeeYoung calls 'Ancient Art of Masters' basically an English translation of the earlier Korean book. Both of these books demonstrate GM Ji HanJae's Hapkido system; his breakdown and ordering of techniques, his kicks, his cane techniques, etc. By the time the first book was written GM Ji had already formalized GM Choi YongSul's informal Yu Sool teachings into what is still used as the basis for Korean Hapkido today. GM Ji had taken hoshinsul well beyond its Japanese roots to something new and uniquely Korean. Likewise, the kicking had already gone well beyond any Japanese Karate influence. Jesse --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "J.R. West" To: Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 10:54:18 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] belt ranks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jeremy Anderson asked: "Does anyone on this list study any arts that still use a 5- or 6- gup/kyu ranking system? If so, how are is the 10-gup ranking system used in many martial arts schools viewed by those practitioners?" When I first started my HapKiDo training in the mid-sixties, we had four belts, white, blue, red and black, representing the four colors of the Korean flag (lots of white, some blue and some red, very little black). After returning to the USA, I discovered that here at home, the TKD guys used yellow and green as well, so I followed suite, but I have seen cases where these same colors had up to four stripes per belt, or many other new colors were added so that the "instant gratification" factor can be used (their words, not mine). Those of you that know me, know that I always teach my students that their short term goal is "come to the next class', make the best of the next class and everything else will take care of itself. Personally, I don't care what belts or stripes anyone uses in order to get their students to the point where they will excel in the knowledge and execution of basic motion........THAT BEING SAID! There are way too many semi-warm bodies out there walking around with black belts around their waist, and if the instructor has gone through X number of gup grades and still can't put out a decent student, then perhaps something else should be tried. The only thing that we, as instructors, have at the end of the day is our good name, and if we go around letting the nearly qualified sneak through under the radar, we won't have that name for long. If you want to have successful school, offer a great product and, in time, people WILL find you....Please don't allow yourself to be swayed by the "parents with video cameras" that expect little Johnny to be a black belt prior to his being housebroken..............J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: jmchie@wideopenwest.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Black Belt ? Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 10:58:50 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce wrote: "Maybe we are quite a ways from having legislation to propose consequences to kids putting on BB and impersonating MA teachers, but wouldn't you think that the KMA community itself wouldn't have to be told to respect its symbols a bit more? Thoughts?" Communities of interest, much like their geographical counterparts such as villiages, cities, states and towns, will never be homogenous in their pursuit of civic virtue. To the extent that at one time in the past martial arts were a necessary component of the continued pursuit of life and the continued existence of one's own community and nation state, regulation and regional or national oversight might have been an important aspect of the maintenance of a martial art. And it is important to make a distinction as to why it was important. It would have been important then not for the least bit of a tradition of the art, or to keep it's original form pristine. Standards would have been important to guarantee the martial effectiveness of the skills imparted. Techniques would be added and removed over time by demonstrations of effectiveness in combat, and no emphasis would be placed on doing things just because the founder of an art taught something in a specific way. This would be true because when the state, or the local geographical community, was threatened, every man and boy of fighting age would be conscripted to fight, or would volunteer. The collective fighting abilities of the men of small communities, and of the nation, had a much different impact than it does today. A fraudulent teacher's impact could be felt among a much larger community than the villiage in which the school was located. Today we have handed over the reins of national and state defense to the brave men and women of the armed services, with the exception of a variety of militia groups preparing to combat the New World Order when it comes for them. Martial arts are a pursuit of self improvement and individual self defense. I will almost certainly never have to utilize my skills to defend my home town from a roving band of marauders, and anyone who does so with that in mind is either paranoid of the end of the world or living in a different place than I. To that end, the importance of martial arts has diminished over time. Most people who take martial arts do so for their own self defense and personal improvement. Those who are not serious students can learn the basic skills from anyone of reasonable training, regardless whether that person is the Grand Poobah of Hooplah they claim to be. Basic skills, to a certain extent, can be Art-independent, so to speak. If you really pressed me for my opinion, I would argue that regardless of the instructor, these casual students really only learn self-confidence (perhaps even overly-inflated confidence). Where am I going with this? It's that there always has been, even back when it was a matter or grave import, and there always will be instructors and students within (or claiming to be within) the KMA that do not take it's precipts as seriously as many would prefer. The same is true of not just every Martial Art, but every area of endeavor. It's not that those within the KMA need to be told to respect their symbols more . . . they already know what they "should" be doing, and have made a decision either based on principle or on personal gain to place their own value judgement on those symbols. No amount of wagging your finger at these instructors and students will impart to them the same reverence you hold for the art and it's symbols. Because of their numbers and the prohobition against the use of force to remove them from their place, no amount of rallying the greater KMA community is going to impact their existence. Pleas to the non martial arts community will go unheeded, as few recreational pursuits such as this in the United States (and that's exactly how it is viewed) rise to such importance that a politican can gain popular support by spending tax dollars regulating this area. What do you do then when it is impossible to gain control? Strangely enough, you have to have faith. Faith that serious students will continue to seek the counsel of the skilled and knowledgeable. You do what you can to make sure that information is available to those who would seek your opinion, and you trust that there will always be a market for the great instructors to be able to make a living doing what they do. To give a real world example, when I first became interested in Hapkido I e-mailed you for information and advice because we live in the same area. Then I came to this list, and while I have not changed instructors I believe I am a better student for it. You believe in the value of your own skills, and you do not worry whether the world thinks your black belt means you should be in the movies or whether you're just using it to hold your pants up. You continue your own journey of growth, and try to plant the seed in others that the journey itself so worthwhile that others might start along the path. You do what you can, over the things that you can control, and the rest you have to let go of. Fighting the world will wear a person down. That does not mean you have to have a positive opinion of everyone. To the contrary, it is important to hear differing opinions regarding the validity of claims of rank, status, and knowledge so that persons of sense can make informed decisions as to their own journey. Justice and fairness won't always happen, but the world has never been like that. At least, that is my own approach. Jim --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Michael Rowe" To: "'Steve Materkowski'" , , "Daniel Kmiecik" , , , , , , , "Robert Olson" Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 11:55:54 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Away from Computer! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just a quick note I'll be away from the computer for a couple days. My grandfather passed away yesterday and I will be helping my father with the arrangements. Michael Rowe --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Ali Alnasser" To: Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 02:04:25 +0900 (KST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Kuk Sool Textbook Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For the that are interested in the out of print red Kuk Sool textbook written by GM In Sun Seo, I saw several listed on ebay. [TABLE NOT SHOWN][TABLE NOT SHOWN][IMAGE] --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 10:37:52 -0700 (PDT) From: J T To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Getting facts straight Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ""... get all the facts before you display you ignorance" Come on folks, lighten up a bit. Thanks. Ray Terry" I apologize if my words seemed harsh, however, the original comment placed by Thomas did meet the definition of ignorance: The condition of being ignorant; the want of knowledge in general, or in relation to a particular subject; the state of being uneducated or uninformed. If GM De Alba was to have seen his comments I am sure he would have just shrugged it off and ignored it, as a genuine GM would. However, since I lack his tact, I refuse to idly stand by while someone who doesn't even know the man make such rude comments about him. Understand that GM De Alba is not only my mentor but my friend. With respect, Jeremy T. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest