Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 19:15:10 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #422 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Yoga 411 (Ray Terry) 2. RE: Re: Meaning of a Black Belt (Mark Seidel) 3. CA/AM Annual Tournament (Dewitt, Garrett) 4. Re: Getting facts straight (Ray Terry) 5. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Nice_Job!!_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 6. Relationships and Service (Rudy Timmerman) 7. Condolences (Rudy Timmerman) 8. RE: Loyalty (Buffy) 9. Re: Away from my computer (Manuel Maldonado) 10. Re: red ksw book (Michael Whalen) 11. Re: Loyalty (Ray Terry) 12. RE: Loyalty (Buffy) 13. Kicks (Ray Terry) 14. Re: Re: Training in Korea (John Johnson) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 11:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Yoga 411 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net fyi... Yoga school info. Interested in yoga? Yoga411.com is one place to locate a yoga school in your area. http://www.yoga411.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Mark Seidel" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Meaning of a Black Belt Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 14:50:31 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I guess you are taking me too seriously in my comparison to university level credentialed testing and the world of Martial Arts, my point is unqualified students make it to testing as a matter of fact. Master Mark Seidel The Midtown Academy Phys-Ed/Martial Arts Program USTU/WTF affiliated www.midtownacademy.org -----Original Message----- From: Calvin Berlin [mailto:cberlin@joyglobal.com] Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 10:58 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Meaning of a Black Belt Master Mark Seidel wrote "I can't recall one instance of anyone ever failing." I don't think it's fair to compare non failing to failing the CPA. First, at least at my dojang, my Master won't in courage you to test unless you could at least perform at a minimum standard. Now you can have a lengthy discussion on what a minimum standard should be, but I'll leave that for another day. My point here is that Universities don't say "gee we really don't think you are equipped to take the CPA test even though we took your money and gave you enough credits to give you our degree. We don't think those C's in your Audit classes will be sufficient enough to pass the CPA Audit test." So the under trained graduate goes in to take the CPA test when they had no real chance of passing. I would compare this to throwing a green or blue belt in front of a table Masters and having him run through a Black Belt test. The probability of this person performing at any minimum to pass would be extremely low. I have seen people who sat for the CPA and they barely understood the relationship between a debit and a credit. Oh, at our dojang people do fail, granted it is a small number, but maybe because going in they are somewhat prepared for what is going to be asked from them. My son didn't pass his red belt test because he didn't perform the board break test at the required minimum. We go back this Saturday to try that part of the test again. My 2 cents Pil Seung Cal Berlin ----------------------------------------------------- This electronic mail transmission contains information from P & H Mining Equipment which is confidential, and is intended only for the use of the proper Addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us immediately at the return address on this transmission, or by telephone at (414) 671-4400, and delete this message and any attachments from your system. Unauthorized use, copying, disclosing, distributing, or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this transmission is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. ----------------------------------------------------- <> --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Dewitt, Garrett" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 14:07:15 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] CA/AM Annual Tournament Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Grandmaster Timmerman's comments: Manuel writes: > I feel that the Martial Arts in general have sort of slacked off > during the > past three decades that I've been associated with them. Hello Manuel: I too found that in my own class, but then I recently traveled to Australia to find some students who still train as hard as mine ever did. This got me thinking that perhaps it was ME who had slowed down a bit in my expectations from them. Perhaps a bit of both, who knows. Hello Sa Ja Nim and all NKMAA Members. I totally agree with both individuals. As of recent I was exceedingly frustrated by the lack of interest from my students to attend the Can/Am Tournament. We ended up with a potential thirteen students heading up to the Soo but only four made the journey. What I did not know than but soon learned was that these four students, each of whom did quite well competing, were more honored to be a member of the NKMAA and be attending this tournament with these good people, than any of the awards which they received. They competed for our dojang and for themselves but more importantly because the really do love the KMA and the strong bonds which exist between the Brainerd KMA students and Grandmaster Timmerman and his students. My frustrations are my own and although I work out and train in every class I have, I had to really take a good look at just what it is that I really am doing in class and the attitude which I am projecting. Thank you Grandmaster Timmerman and all for a very enjoyable tournament and for giving us the time to converse and strengthen our ties. Respectfully Submitted Master Garrett DeWitt Brainerd Tae Kwon Do - Hapkido --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Getting facts straight To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 12:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ""... get all the facts before you display you ignorance" > > Come on folks, lighten up a bit. > Thanks. > Ray Terry" > > I apologize if my words seemed harsh, however, the > original comment placed by Thomas did meet the > definition of ignorance: The condition of being > ignorant; the want of knowledge in general, or in > relation to a particular subject; the state of being > uneducated or uninformed. Lighten up. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 14:37:30 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Nice_Job!!_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jim: ".....No amount of wagging your finger at these instructors and students will impart to them the same reverence you hold for the art and it's symbols. Because of their numbers and the prohobition against the use of force to remove them from their place, no amount of rallying the greater KMA community is going to impact their existence. Pleas to the non martial arts community will go unheeded, as few recreational pursuits such as this in the United States (and that's exactly how it is viewed) rise to such importance that a politican can gain popular support by spending tax dollars regulating this area......" I think that was a great post! It also underscores why I continually come back to the same theme of teachers instilling qualities in their students beyond simple competent execution of techniques. Somehow there needs to be a way to raise the fervor and spirit and respect for these arts without necessarily having to attach oneself to a particular organization or personality. I know that I have heard both Rudy and JR talk about making a difference in the KMA one student at a time and I back that belief system all the way. With as many folks wanting to make a quick buck off of promotions and certifications it seems like there should at least be as much room in this world for folks who want to be a bit more discerning. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:43:54 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Relationships and Service Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > There are a few aspects of Korean deportment that mystify me more than > what > you both have described. Even if one were to consider KMA from a solely > commecial aspect one would assume that the head of an organization--- > or a > school--- would take care of his workforce in the way in which he > expects > the workforce to support him. From MY experience, taking care of the workforce has not been a prime philosophy > Do these people not understand > the concept of "Service" or do they figure that their elevated > positions > and the rarified atmosphere of an office absolve them of having to > provide > support, guidance and management for their members? On one occasion, my GM had invited a group of Korean businessmen to attend a major function I hosted. When I wanted to get a nice room for each of them I was told to put them all in a cheap room... they are only businessmen was the comment. I personally could not see how martial art "business" was any different than any other business, but the Korean businessmen seemed to understand just fine where they should sleep. Beats me:) As host, it was an embarrassing situation for me. > I wonder if such > leaders have woven a cloth of romantic fuedal image so extensive that > they > have actually begun to believe it themselves. One of my GMs actually believed to be a reincarnated General who had lost a war due to treachery in a previous life, and he would never allow his "officers" close enough to betray him again. As close as we might think we are to our Korean Master Instructors, there is a distinct difference in the way we think. Like it or not, we have to accept them for who they are. Difference is the spice of life, neh:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:49:31 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Condolences Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael, sorry to hear about your grief. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Buffy" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Loyalty Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 22:04:33 +0200 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jeremy T.: "First of all, I really get a kick out of reading opinoins from people who have no idea what took place between the two and yet form opinoins on one of the people without meeting them." Even if I talked to them, would I know if they were telling the truth? How do I know you are telling the truth? Jeremy T.: "I have spoken with GM De Alba about GM Lee and he never said a discouraging word about him, even after the fact that GM Lee slandered him all over the net as well as too others. Why don't you give him a call and ask GM De Alba his version prior to making such a statement." This sounds like the way to do it - talk to them - both. I admit I have not talked to either one of them ... just "re-telling" what I have been told (just like you do). I have seen the HRD videos De Alba made ... somethings were good somethings were not. Jeremy T.: "Secondly his system is extremely effective. He has since brought his training as well as his art to a whole new level that, in my opinoin, has surpassed what I have seen in the Hwa Rang Do. For comparrison why don't you buy a copy of Lee's combative knife and De Alba's combative knife and judge for yourself. Why don't you take a class of HRD from Lee and then a class of Farangmusul from De Alba and compare for yourself. Oh wait scratch that, in order for you to take HRD, you have to take 2 years of Tae Soo Do, before they will 'allow' you to take HRD, so you will have to invest a lot of time and money, before you get a chance to see HRD. Hmmmmmmm...." I never said that his system is bad. I started training HRD last summer and did not train TSD first ... Jeremy T.: "Is your GM Lee? Then it would at least make sense how you formed your original opinoin." All the black belts I have talked to told me the story as I did. If it not the truth them I will ofcourse confront them with the matter. Jeremy T.: "Thomas writes: > I have to say, our similarities is rather uncanny. I too dealt with an > instructor that didn't understand that loyalty went both ways. I won't > go in details here on a public list but it was very discouraging. It > made me a better instructor after an absolute nightmare of trying to > break free of his grip. Hello Thomas: I think JR and I could both fill a tub with letters from folks who have encountered similar problems; however, this only means that you have to be a might careful when looking for a teacher or organization. There are some very good ones around of all origins:) Sincerely, Rudy" I did not write that (I not an instructor) ... but hey ... I get the point ... BE CAREFUL!!! By the way Jeremy T. ... how do you know that your "facts" are the real facts? Were you there? Or do you (as I do) have to take your trainer's word for it? Thomas. "Nothing beats a good discussion :o) " --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Manuel Maldonado" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 14:14:25 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Away from my computer Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My condolences Michael Rowe. Take care of the family after all they are and should always be first and foremost in your life. May God keep your grandfather in his heavenly light. I'll pray for his soul. Rev. Manuel K. Maldonado _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 Dial-up Internet Service FREE for one month. Limited time offer-- sign up now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Michael Whalen" To: "dojang digest" Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 16:21:35 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: red ksw book Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Wasn't that written (at the time) by In Hyuk Suh? Or maybe a collaboration? michael whalen kswnut --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Loyalty To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 14:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > By the way Jeremy T. ... how do you know that your "facts" are the real > facts? Were you there? Or do you (as I do) have to take your trainer's word > for it? Jeremy was a bit stronger in stating his support for Master De Alba, but you will note that he was not the only one to provide a contrary view to your claim. I have met, even tho very briefly, both Master De Alba and Gm Lee. Both were very nice to me, however I doubt either one remembers me. I was a participant in a seminar in which Michael also participated and I met JB Lee at his dojang down in Southern California. Their parting developed over many years. Michael was doing a great job of spreading JB Lee's brand of Hapkido, but apparently that wasn't enough for JBL. Both were probably a bit at fault, as is typically the case, but from all that happened it was no doubt best that Michael separate from the HwaRangDo group and take his art to another level. Yes, it is sad when/if we part with our instructor, but as others have said, loyality must go both ways. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Buffy" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Loyalty Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 00:07:04 +0200 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Their parting developed over many years. Michael was doing a great job of spreading JB Lee's brand of Hapkido, but apparently that wasn't enough for JBL. Both were probably a bit at fault, as is typically the case, but from all that happened it was no doubt best that Michael separate from the HwaRangDo group and take his art to another level. Yes, it is sad when/if we part with our instructor, but as others have said, loyality must go both ways." Ok - let's leave it at that :o) and why can't we all just be friends :oD Thomas. --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Kicks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ... still used as the basis for Korean Hapkido today. GM Ji had taken > hoshinsul well beyond its Japanese roots to something new and uniquely > Korean. Likewise, the kicking had already gone well beyond any Japanese > Karate influence. It is very interesting to note the similarity between the kicks of Sin Moo Hapkido and Taekkyun's kicks. Clearly Gm Ji included these kicks into his syllabus along with a few of the more Karate-ish kicks. I have even held seminars on the kicks of Taekkyun since many of them are found in Sin Moo. e.g Sin Moo's kicks #1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 10, etc... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "John Johnson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Training in Korea Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 03:00:23 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, Since I am still a pretty low level dan in Korea, I can only comment on what little I've seen and experienced. I'll try answer each of your comments and questions in turn. Certainly, though, >there must be a range of teachers, with some being more commercial and >managerial while others are more hands-on and focused on the art. I'm sure there are some, but they are few and far between. My Hapkido instructor, for example still teaches most of the classes' self-defense, but leaves the stretching warm-ups and kicking parts to advanced belts. However, his master, one of the "old guys" who is usually in charge of the Seoul dan tests, I've seen out on the mat with only two children. I guess, it depends on the instructor, but more importantly, I was writing in general terms and not as a hard-fast rule. I don't think school owners avoiding teaching when they are needed, just when a younger black belt can do the basic warm-ups and "put in their own time", the owners usually don't hesitate to put their feet up on their desks. Do Korean >practitioners take this into account or is it simply a matter of attending >whatever school is in the neighborhood? Most Koreans do not care who their instructors are. If the instructor has a Kukkiwon master certificate, they are guaranteed to be a knowledgeable WTF instructor (and from my experience, this is true). However, most students in Korean martial art schools are under the age of 15 and don't think about it much. They just want to have fun. I suppose you could liken to the fact we don't expect Derek Jeter to be coaching own Little League games. Do the Koreans maintain networks >which tend to recognized more accomplished or dedicated teachers over >others, or are all teachers painted equally with the same brush? In my limited exposure to the high ranking KHF structure, there is definitely a small group of instructors who have separated themselves from the average instructor. They are the well respected leaders such as the demonstration team's coach and other's who have specialized in some aspect of the art. There are also the usual alliances and people who get their feathers rustled because someone left them or the whatnot we see stateside, but this is not discussed with the low ranking belts. Most martial artists in Korea don't care about organizational hierarchy; they just want to train, get fit, have fun, or their parents want to get rid of them for an hour or two. So, in essence, there are networks, but you have to get in good with the powers that be to know about them. I can see >where the Korean parent could drop his kid off at the local TKD school for >training, but where do upper level practitioners go to refine their skills >and expand their knowledge of a particular art? I have seen some upper level black belts train with other masters briefly, but this is rare. It's much like the whole loyalty discussion going on right now, but in the sense that "Why should I look for another instructor when I trust my master?" Usually, if one wants to train outside of their own school, they may visit their master's master's school or their instructor's friend. For example, I began training at my instructor's instructor's school (that's just so darned awkward to say) a little this year and the owner of the school voiced a concern about it. I told him that a long time ago my instructor said it was okay. Still, a telephone call was made to receive my instructor's permission (which was, of course, granted). Okay, that may be more information than you wanted and I do tend to be verbose, but let me know if I left anything out. John >From: >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Training in Korea >Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 08:39:13 -0500 (CDT) > >Dear John: > >".....So, to make this brief, they are not given the information to see >everything >and are not taught the tools to search it out for themselves. In some ways, >this is the Korean system of checks and balances for controlling >power....." > >Thanks, I needed that. Sometimes I don't think that I give all the credit >needed to the fact that Korean culture, despite its Westernized trappings >can be fundamentally different from things Stateside. Certainly, though, >there must be a range of teachers, with some being more commercial and >managerial while others are more hands-on and focused on the art. Do Korean >practitioners take this into account or is it simply a matter of attending >whatever school is in the neighborhood? Do the Koreans maintain networks >which tend to recognized more accomplished or dedicated teachers over >others, or are all teachers painted equally with the same brush? I can see >where the Korean parent could drop his kid off at the local TKD school for >training, but where do upper level practitioners go to refine their skills >and expand their knowledge of a particular art? > >Best Wishes, > >Bruce >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _________________________________________________________________ Share your photos without swamping your Inbox. Get Hotmail Extra Storage today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest