Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 07:29:07 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #423 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: red ksw book (Ali Alnasser) 2. Re: Loyalty (J T) 3. Re: Training in Korea (A. Boyd) 4. Andrew's joke (A. Boyd) 5. Number of classes per week in Korea (A. Boyd) 6. Re: Kicks (Jye nigma) 7. Um/Yang (Charles Richards) 8. Economy (Charles Richards) 9. Pet peeve with certain terms (Kevin Hostelley) 10. Re: Kicks (Ray Terry) 11. Re: Meaning of a Black Belt (Calvin Berlin) 12. Re: Pet peeve with certain terms (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Ali Alnasser" To: Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 12:40:46 +0900 (KST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: red ksw book Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The book I have says it was written by GM In Sun Seo but edited by GM In Hyuk Suh. My copy was published in '87 I believe. [TABLE NOT SHOWN][TABLE NOT SHOWN][IMAGE] --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 21:38:12 -0700 (PDT) From: J T To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Loyalty Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Even if I talked to them, would I know if they were telling the truth? How do I know you are telling the truth?" - That is my point you don't know, so why make snap judgements on people who you have never met based on a story you have no idea about. At no point did anyone say "Go to GM De Alba's Dojang in California, but stay the hell away for GM Lee's school." All that was said was that a couple of people highly recommended his school. Then you jumped in with your negative comments. "This sounds like the way to do it - talk to them - both. I admit I have not talked to either one of them ... just "re-telling" what I have been told (just like you do). I have seen the HRD videos De Alba made ... somethings were good somethings were not." -Right, yet my "re-telling" doesn't involve any off the wall shots heard by someone who heard it from someone who wasn't there. I talked to one of the people who were there and again, I will re-inerate that he had nothing but positive things to say about GM Lee. He never once bad mouthed when we talked. "I never said that his system is bad. I started training HRD last summer and did not train TSD first ..." - From the HRD site: "Tae Soo DoŽ is an undergraduate training program to Hwa Rang DoŽ for people who have not had previous experience in the martial arts. Because of the complexity and vast requirements of Hwa Rang DoŽ techniques, experienced martial artists may begin directly in Hwa Rang DoŽ" I stand corrected. Only beginning people have to take the TSD. My mistake. "All the black belts I have talked to told me the story as I did. If it not the truth them I will of course confront them with the matter." - As Mst. Terry has already pointed out. Most likely they were both at fault. Going to your black belts and saying you've heard this and that, will only make you unpopular not grab anything new from them. Plus how many of them were there? "eremy T.: "Thomas writes: I have to say, our similarities is rather uncanny. I too dealt with an instructor that didn't understand that loyalty went both ways.......... Sincerely, Rudy" I did not write that (I not an instructor) ... but hey ... I get the point ... BE CAREFUL!!!" - I never quoted you saying that. That was GM Timmerman who wrote that. "By the way Jeremy T. ... how do you know that your "facts" are the real facts? Were you there? Or do you (as I do) have to take your trainer's word for it?" - You totally missed the point. I never stated any facts at all pertaining to the disagreement between GM Lee and GM De Alba. The only thing I stated was that you made a judgement on someone you didn't know, based on hearsay. The only fact I broght up was that GM De Alba never said anything bad to me about GM Lee. Again, my whole point was not calling GM Lee a liar. My point was letting you know that you made a poor judgement on a man, who if you trained with and met, would most likely find him to be a great guy on and off the mat. (Yes Ray, I know, lighten up :p) With respect, Jeremy T. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 05:27:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Training in Korea Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net John Johnson wrote about the sad state of Korean instruction and the lack of questioning by students. It's pretty much true, although with the speed typical of change in Korea, things are not what they were when I moved here in '97. I absolutely agree that the neo-confucian (not confucian) ethic of Korea and the persistance of the rote learning model of education tends to produce students who have great difficulty assembling puzzle pieces or bits of information without step by step guidance. As Mr. Johnson was replying to my comment I will clarify: When I wrote that Kroean TKD-ists benefit from getting a wider picture, what I meant was that due to their more rapid advancement (well, correctly paced advancement actually), they get access to more of the art and the "critical mass" of their skills can be reached at an earlier stage. By getting access to the requirements for higher dans at a steady pace, I feel that they get the *opportunity* to hone a more comprehensive set of skills (whether they choose to use them or not, or regardless of what sparring set they are required to use) than someone who is forced to remain within one set of requirements for an extended period of time. It is a mistake to assume that a person who is poor at asking questions or inferring unknown information, is incapable of making appropriate use of material within their grasp. I sadly have to agree with the other comment Mr. Johnson made about the large number of instructors who spend more time in their office chairs than on the mat. There are a lot of students in Korea who are paying monthly dues to lead classes and rarely get taught. It is not uncommon at all for you to pass a test, get rapidly shown the forms, etc for your next belt level, practice alone for however many months or years it will be until you test again, and then a week or so before your test find out from the grand fromage what you've been doing wrong. Muscle memory is a wonderful thing until you have to change it. I saw this a lot in my Hapkido days, and friends complain of it now in some gumdojangs. ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 05:53:41 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Andrew's joke Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Andrew Pratt was just joking about the reknowned discipline method of hair-cutting, but his remark got me thinking. For the first three years that I lived in Korea I taught kids. My first year was with middle school and elementary students. My second and third years were spent teaching elementary and pre-school children. What Andrew said was true, I had far fewer discipline problems than the other teachers - after a time. In my first year, it took me nearly 5 months to find a Haidong Gumdo school. Once I did, and once I was fully involved in the life of being a dedicated martial arts student, I found all the broken pieces of my desired but at that time unrealized personal philosophy coming together. Perhaps it was the uncounted number of centre cuts at 6am in the winter chill of an unheated dojang, but something in me changed radically. The kids sensed it and from that point on peace was achievable in the classroom. I never had to do anything to them and I never had to threaten them. They weren't necessarily good all the time but I think they just knew that I was serious and I was really paying attention to them. I wasn't wasting time trying to get them to see me in a certain light or benefit from my instruction in some ill-defined way. These days I am the academic supervisor of a school that teaches adults. Discipline problems are a burden for kiddie schools and I have cheerfully left them behind. The only problem I face now in the classes I take on is the comment, "You are a black belt? I better be careful around you!" I don't know about you, but that kind of obsequious, semi-serious fear-based reaction really annoys me. If the attainment of dan rank involves (supposedly) an acceptance of a certain code of behaviour, why does the average Kim think I would ever be a physical danger to him? Perhaps it's my fierce mustache and menacing lack of body weight... ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 06:01:55 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Number of classes per week in Korea Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In my experience, students go 4-6 times per week and practice for an hour. Arts like Haidong Gumdo give you practice time after that hour due to the class structure but an hour is a good benchmark. During test season people will take multiple classes per day. As long as you aren't taking up space that a student who hasn't practiced today needs, then it's usually okay to attend a second or third class. Tests occur like clockwork every six to eight weeks. Instructors try to get you ready to meet that schedule and many times with the kids, test them whether they've finished the requirements or not. Some intructors have an attendance policy of some kind. My last hapkido instructor had one that required no more than 2 absences per month. If you missed more you got a warning. If you missed more than 4, you wouldn't be promoted to the next rank. You still were required to test but even if you passed there was no reward. He still taught you new material though so the punishment was purely one of time and rank. Those with more dedication to attendance got given higher rank that those who didn't. ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 04:28:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kicks To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm very interested in seeing Taekyyon(sp?) are good resources out there? Jye __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 06:21:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Um/Yang Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear list, Allow me to ponder with friends on the Um and Yang balance of life. Looking over the last month has been a whirlwind. Labor day weekend we bought a new car. Reminded me why I hate salesmen. Two weeks later I took 3 of my die-hard students to Jackson to train, slaughter buffetts and laughed so hard in our hotel room my one big ab hurt. To return home safely only to learn that a major hole had been riped in the fabric of Korean Martial Arts with the passing of Master R. West. Days later I almost lost my sister in law (a single mother), who is fine now. Following week I tested my youngest student to 4th Gup (age 7). Later that week we had the pleasure of Master McHenry in for the 3rd Annual Moja Kwan Moo Do Camp. My students and Mr. & Mrs. Clarke's students are still pumped after Master Mac's visit! That same weekend Justin Phillips (a transfer from Shotokan) received the honor of being the first student to receive a blackbelt in Moja Kwan Moo Do. This week I had a long talk with my step dad in law (a cancer survivor) and renewed the value of family and learned some good lessons about balance between family giri and avocations. The last two nights adults classes have been just Justin and I. What a joy to work on sword cuts until your triceps and lats are on fire, and have someone to share Nahanji II and Jindo with. Came home from class last night to the joy of having my father in law in town for the weekend (one of my greatest mentors). The coming month has just as much activity and so here's my point. Stop take time and fully focus on and enjoy those you love. Fill up your life with lots of activity that moves towards your goals. Take time to reflect on you roles and their alignment with your core values. Train with jung do in your hearts the rest is commentary, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 06:29:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Economy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear list, Many of you know I run my dojang like a business, but not for the purpose of selling belts. As such I have set my tuition inline with the national average for martial arts training and almost dead even with my nearest commercial competitor. Since 9/11/01 I have seen unemployment and layoffs leading to reduced income nationally and here at my school. September has been average for inquiries but near dead for enrollments. I keep hearing I can't afford that, yet I have students continuing to make payments... My questions are. 1. Have you ever lowered you tuition to trend with the economy (contrary to mcdojang advice)? 2. Are any of you commercial operators experiencing this trend or do I need to go back to white belt business school of info calls and intro lessons? 3. If you did lower your tuition, by what percent, and did you notice any trends in the types of students you attracted? Many Thanks, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 06:30:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin Hostelley To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Pet peeve with certain terms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi all, I know this is going to sound petty, but I think it has some importance. When people use the terms "My Master" or "My Grandmaster" shouldn't they actually be saying "My instructor who is a Master/Grandmaster"? I think that the terms Master/Grandmaster refer to the mastering of the art not the servitude of the student to the Master. The reason that I think this is important is because it better delineates the limits of trust and loyalty that should be shown by a student to his instructor. Just my opinion. Any one care to chime in? ===== Kevin Hostelley --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kicks To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 06:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I'm very interested in seeing Taekyyon(sp?) are good > resources out there? Turtle Press (www.turtlepress.com) has two tapes on Taekkyon. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 09:06:30 -0500 From: "Calvin Berlin" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Meaning of a Black Belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Mark Seidel, I guess I did. But my point still remains that the (perceived) unqualified make it to testing in all walks of life. But, at least in my experience, testing in TDK has been more filtered than other testing I have been through, ie. a higher percent of passing. But I do know what you are referring to. I'll watch others testing and I'll think boy I can kick higher than that, (I don't kick very high) and wonder how they could pass. But then I remind myself I have enough on my plate trying to figure out what I need to work on. Thanks for listening. Pil Seung Cal Berlin ----------------------------------------------------- This electronic mail transmission contains information from P & H Mining Equipment which is confidential, and is intended only for the use of the proper Addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us immediately at the return address on this transmission, or by telephone at (414) 671-4400, and delete this message and any attachments from your system. Unauthorized use, copying, disclosing, distributing, or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this transmission is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. ----------------------------------------------------- <> --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 07:48:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Pet peeve with certain terms To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It may be all in the way one views it. Master also refers to a teacher. I see your point. I wont be calling any my personal Master except for God the Father. Jye --- Kevin Hostelley wrote: > Hi all, > > I know this is going to sound petty, but I think it > has some importance. > > When people use the terms "My Master" or "My > Grandmaster" shouldn't they actually be saying "My > instructor who is a Master/Grandmaster"? I think > that > the terms Master/Grandmaster refer to the mastering > of > the art not the servitude of the student to the > Master. > > The reason that I think this is important is because > it better delineates the limits of trust and loyalty > that should be shown by a student to his instructor. > > Just my opinion. Any one care to chime in? > > > > ===== > Kevin Hostelley > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest