Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 19:32:19 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #426 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. The title and the cost (Emactkd@aol.com) 2. USA-ITF formerly known as KATU (t.metzner1) 3. RE: Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #420 - msg 7 The Proliferation of Belts Brief Belt history (Jason E. Thomas (Y!)) 4. Re:Has Black Belt Lost Its Meaning? (Todd) 5. Do I just need to work harder? (TeachingInChina@aol.com) 6. Shared Lessons (Charles Richards) 7. Titles and Master (Ray Terry) 8. Re: Do I just need to work harder? (Ray Terry) 9. RE: Do I just need to work harder? (Jason E. Thomas (Y!)) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 03:33:59 -0400 From: Emactkd@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] The title and the cost Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We come through these areas from time to time, and it's good to see if we have any new insights. I'm not sure I do, but I do have a couple of old observations. My master is my master. I called him "susungnim", which due to my hearing impediment may be the "songsanim" mentioned in another post. Sometimes hard to tell. But I asked him what he wanted to be called and that is what I think he said, and he never corrected my pronunciation afterwards. He required that students refer to me and my brother 5th dans as "masters", so when in his school that is what I expect and instruct. But in my own school I say I am "Foley sabumnim" if you ask me for a formal thing, but I find students call me Master Foley anyway. I think it makes them feel better to train under a "master". As someone said, to some that's important. They also refer to me as the "old man" and "the fast fat guy". In regards to Charles's question about tuitions, I think you might want to change your telephone approach. Price shoppers are with us forever, but I don't think that lowering your fees is an answer. Say what you want about the mcdojangs, and I am loathe to give them any praise, but they do have the "get the student signed" thing down pretty well. And they are not the cheapest in town. And the one thing they harp on is telephone scripts that get appointments without giving out the price until they ask the third time. It's hard to do, because I am not a damn telephone sales guy, but their systems work. Another way to look at it is that Harvard doesn't lower tuition in the face of the recession. Neither does LSU, or Podunk Community College (Wait, isn't that LS..) Now if you are charging like Harvard but offer facilites like Podunk you got a problem, but if the other schools in your area are charging about the same, sell the sizzle. Rick Foley --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "t.metzner1" To: Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 08:10:56 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] USA-ITF formerly known as KATU Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Maldonado, I am a member of USA-ITF formerly known as KATU. I am a 4th Dan teaching in East Granby CT at a school owned by William Oulundsen, 6th Dan and GM Hwang's most senior student. I had the privledge to take many classes/seminars with GM Hwang. I feel fortunate that if I ever have any questions concerning a technique that I can just call him and get an immediate answer. GM Hwang just did a demonstartion at his golf tournament last Friday and peopel who had never seen him were speechless. He is 61 and still has incredible quickness and reflexes. I would also like to weigh in about the proliferation of black belts. Martial arts are not what they used to be. In fact they are now truer to their mission then ever before in most cases. TKD and other martial arts used to be only for the biggest, strongest and toughest. Certainly a black belt 30 years ago was tougher than most today. The rank has been watered down no question. But now we teach students who need it. People who are smaller, older, younger, weaker need to learn how to defend themselves more so than the strong tough guys. These people start training and some stick with it for years. Are they not suppoesed to be black belts because they can't (and never will) break three boards with a side kick? White belt signifies a blank slate no knowledge of TKD. Black belt means a fullness of knowledge meaning you have proven yourself worthy of being a student of TKD. I get more satisfaction teaching introverted teenage girls, clumsy weekend warriors, and Attention Deficit Disorder 9 year old boys than future Jackie Chans. Tom Metzner --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Jason E. Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #420 - msg 7 The Proliferation of Belts Brief Belt history Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 07:37:22 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ramon, I believe you are right. Here is a quip I picked up a while ago: A Brief History of the Martial Arts Belt Systems A brief history of gup/kyu/dan (kyu is the Japanese equivalent of gup) ranking systems and belts, follows: Before Jigoro Kano invented Judo, there was no kyu/dan ranking system. Kano invented it when he awarded "shodan" to two of his senior students (Saito and Tomita) in 1883. Even then, there was no external differentiation between yudansha (dan ranks) and mudansha (those who hadn't yet attained dan ranking). Kano apparently began the custom of having his yudansha wear black obis in 1886. These obis weren't the belts karateka and judoka wear today - Kano hadn't invented the judogi (uniform) yet, and his students were still practicing in kimono. They were the wide obi still worn with formal kimono. In 1907, Kano introduced the modern gi and its modern obi, but he still only used white and black. Karateka in Okinawa didn't use any sort of special uniform at all in the old days. The kyu/dan ranking system, and the modern karategi (modified judogi) were first adopted by Funakoshi in an effort to encourage karate's acceptance by the Japanese. He awarded the first "shodan" ranks given in karate to Tokuda, Otsuka, Akiba, Shimizu, Hirose, Gima, and Kasuya on April 10, 1924. The adoption of the kyu/dan system and the adoption of a standard uniform based on the judogi were 2 of the 4 conditions which the Dai-Nippon Butokukai required before recognizing karate as a "real" martial art. If you look at photographs of Okinawan karateka training in the early part of this century, you'll see that they were training in their everyday clothes, or in their underwear. Most other arts that have ranking/belt color systems adopted them from the Japanese. Regards, Jason E. Thomas Chief Instructor North Austin Tae Kwon Do www.natkd.com > Hi Jeremy, be blessed. > > I am almost sertain that the belt creation is or must be a recognition to > juDo fouder Jigoro Kano whom was a school teacher (I am not shure if a > college teacher in Japan in the late 1800) and to be able to grade his > students he awarded these belts to have them ranked or classed. Also the > Gi or Dobalk as the Korean term goes is also credited to Mr. Jigoro Kano. > > In the early martial arts trainuing from a traditional sence the workout > would be done with dayly clothing. > > HAP > > Ramon Navarro > HapKiDo SabomNim > Song Moo HapKiDo > Panama City Panama --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:13:41 +1000 From: Todd Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Has Black Belt Lost Its Meaning? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Denise said: "And I'm proud of every one of them. So is our community. My mindset? "The buck stops here." Well put Denise. I think you have expressed an alernative angle on this debate with finesse. We need to direct our students along the journey, help them choose the right path and hopefully they will develop good technique and attitude from the guidance we give. And as Denise says, be proud of your students for they are an extension, or reflection, of you. 'Like father, like son; Like instructor, like student.' Thanks for pointing this out Denise. Todd -- TKD --__--__-- Message: 5 From: TeachingInChina@aol.com Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 17:59:33 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Do I just need to work harder? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have a question for the list, but maybe it has been asked before. Saturday (10/4/03) I thought I was going to test for my 4th gup purple belt, but I did not. On that Tuesday before the test, my Grandmaster told me "no". I did not ask, I was on my way to get a registration form when he told me I do not need to get a form because I will not test. I respect his decision, but I am a little lost for words. I do not know if my skill needs improvement or if I have displayed some sort of behavior that shows I am not ready to be an assistant instructor. I practice 3x weekly at the Dojo, and 3 x weekly in private. I participate in all of our events. Should I ask him "why"? Should I just accept this decision and just prepare myself for the next rank exam in December? To mention, I have not been back to the Dojo since that Tuesday because I want to make sure I am OK in my art. Please note, I am not gripping, complaining, or being childish, I just want to make sure I am doing what I should do as a martial artist. Thanks 5th gup blue TKD "He who learns without thinking will be bewildered; he who thinks without learning will be in danger." Confucius --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 15:18:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Shared Lessons Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Kamsahamnida Kwanjang nim :-) Funny, every time I see a good "new" lesson for my gups or they ask a "dumb" question it's really a lesson for me :-) Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 10:46:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Titles and Master Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The topic of the use of the titles master and grandmaster comes up every so often over on the sister list of the_dojang, the Eskrima Digest. In the FMA (Filipino Martial Arts) world the title Guro is far more common than Master, however Master is used by a few. IMHO it comes down to what you get used to saying/using. Using the term Master for my first Korean instructor seemed a bit strange at the time, but it became less of a problem over time. Using the term Guro seemed even stranger at first, but it too became less of a problem over the years. To an outsider the terms Master and Guro carry meanings that -we- frequently don't have in mind when referring to a teacher as Master or Guro. I guess I'm saying that we often become desensitized to something over time without recalling our own reaction the first time we heard the instructor called my Master or my Guro. Personally I have no problem calling my Korean instructor Master or my Filipino instructor Guro. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Do I just need to work harder? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 18:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > but I did not. On that Tuesday before the test, my Grandmaster told me "no". I > did not ask, I was on my way to get a registration form when he told me I do > not need to get a form because I will not test. > > I respect his decision, but I am a little lost for words. I do not know if my > skill needs improvement or if I have displayed some sort of behavior that > shows I am not ready to be an assistant instructor. > > I practice 3x weekly at the Dojo, and 3 x weekly in private. I participate in > all of our events. Should I ask him "why"? Should I just accept this decision > and just prepare myself for the next rank exam in December? Just be glad that you have an instructor that doesn't allow everyone to test. Sounds like once you get closer to Black Belt he expects more out of you, in performance and time in rank. Given all the McDojangs out there, I'd say it sounds like you have an instructor that should be respected for his high standards. Consider yourself lucky to have found such an instructor. Anyone can buy the belt, but you will EARN it. As for talking to your instructor... sure, why not. But personally I would not ask "sir, why wouldn't allow me to test?", perhaps ask something along the lines of "sir, what do you recommend that I focus on over the next few months?. Get back on the floor. Don't let this get you down. Use it as a motivator to work harder, longer and get better. IMHO. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Jason E. Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Do I just need to work harder? Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 22:01:58 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My suggestion would be that you simply ask your instructor in a respectful way, what you would need to work on in order to be ready for the next belt rank. Regards, Jason > -----Original Message----- > From: TeachingInChina@aol.com [mailto:TeachingInChina@aol.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 5:00 PM > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] Do I just need to work harder? > > I have a question for the list, but maybe it has been asked before. > Saturday (10/4/03) I thought I was going to test for my 4th gup purple > belt, > but I did not. On that Tuesday before the test, my Grandmaster told me > "no". I > did not ask, I was on my way to get a registration form when he told me I > do > not need to get a form because I will not test. > > I respect his decision, but I am a little lost for words. I do not know if > my > skill needs improvement or if I have displayed some sort of behavior that > shows I am not ready to be an assistant instructor. > > I practice 3x weekly at the Dojo, and 3 x weekly in private. I participate > in > all of our events. Should I ask him "why"? Should I just accept this > decision > and just prepare myself for the next rank exam in December? To mention, I > have not been back to the Dojo since that Tuesday because I want to make > sure I > am OK in my art. Please note, I am not gripping, complaining, or being > childish, I just want to make sure I am doing what I should do as a > martial artist. > > Thanks > 5th gup blue > TKD > > "He who learns without thinking will be bewildered; he who thinks without > learning will be in danger." > > Confucius > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest