Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 07:18:40 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #429 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Today's Topics: 1. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Taking_UR__Time?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 2. Dojang Green (L. Veuleman) 3. Re: Master (Michael Whalen) 4. What is this book? (jmchie@wideopenwest.com) 5. Re: KHF National Director (Beungood@aol.com) 6. RE: adding to it all... (Eric Walker) 7. Sin Moo Instructor Seminar (Todd W Deininger) 8. Re: What is this book? (Ray Terry) 9. receptionist (Charles Richards) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 12:13:21 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Taking_UR__Time?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Charles: "..... Try looking at this as an opportunity to make your TKD training more journey oriented than destination oriented......" I am right there with you, but sometimes it seems like we preach into the wind. Some of the common things I see with my students never seem to extinguish no matter what I say or do. One is this incredible appetite for novelty. I teach a technique and the students do it a few times and then, next thing you know they are messing around and I have to lock their heels to get them back on track (remember I'm talking about college students, now). Another is this insatiable appetite for competition. I don't mean "championships"but the sort of one-ups-man-ship that comes up when two people are working together. Yet another, is the sort of "pressed-for-time" attitude that says that the student simply seems to be in an all-fired rush to get somewhere as yet unspecified. It doesn't really have anything to do with rank, though rank feeds into it. It seems more like the kind of behavior one sees on Christmas or at a birthday party when a kids is opening the gifts and can't wait to rip into one package after another without even letting it register what they have gotten before tearing into the next ribbon. Finally, there is the need to challenge--- which I guess effectively makes ME one of the "packages" they want to open. Its a sorta "lets-see-what-the- ol-fart-can-really-do" attitude. Sometimes its some kid whose taken wrestling, and sometimes its someone who has been egged into it by his friends(?). Sometimes it starts with "hey, what would you do if....." or "I don't mean to be disrespectful....). Its all the same thing, though. I am suppose to provide them with cheap entertainment as I have yet to see anyone actually use any information that could come out of such a situation. I think you are right on the money, Charles, but I just don't see anyone truely listening to that message, as many times as it has come up on this board. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 10:20:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "L. Veuleman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Dojang Green Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Charles, Yeah, I know where you are coming from with all of the price problems. Money makes the dojang stay alive, even if it comes from the dabblers. I my school, I have spent the ENTIRE summer giving away uniforms, and have gone through a few. I am now finally cutting back a little bit and doing a "pay three months get free uniform' thing. Soon I will be a supplyer for uniforms with my own brand, and I will be able to give them out without it hurting so badly. I would say I have about 33% dabblers, which is the lowest I have ever been. These past few months were pretty rough, but I realized who my loyal students were. Stick to your guns though man. The things that make my school more attractive are just the things the guy down the street is doing wrong. He actually requires you to do automatic drafting, or pay for 6 months in cash if you won't. He charges a 60 buck registration fee, you get a lightweight century uniform. His curriculum has even changed three or four times over the last 4 years. Also, him being a horses' ass doesn't help either. We just get a check from mom or dad at the beginning of the month, give you a dobak or charge you 25 bucks for it, and we still do what we have been since 1989 when my instructor opened up shop. Be a good guy, have good ties with your current parents, and treat your students like students on the floor, and better off of it. The rest will fall into place. Good luck with it. Hey, when you or Mac or Rich or any of the Hapkido guys (excluding controversial FL residents) coming to Natchitoches? (Nack-Ee-tush) I wanna be on the road of the traveling teachers path so we can get some good stuff too. Or is that just for the USKMAF people? I am next to a major interstate ya know....We have lots of buffets.....and Meat Pies..... YITMA Charlie Veuleman ************** L. Charles Veuleman - http://www.bluewavekarate.com Natchitoches Karate Institute - Chittim Jordan Tae Kwon Do 318-356-7727 Natchitoches Kustom Inks - Quality Screen Printing 318-332-1676 204 Rapides Drive Natchitoches, LA 71457 --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Michael Whalen" To: "dojang digest" Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 12:25:36 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Master Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I use the term "Master" purely for showing respect and etiquette. I don't feel it means that I'm a lesser person. Just as when I bow, it is for a greeting, not showing signs of subservience. michael whalen KSWnut --__--__-- Message: 4 From: jmchie@wideopenwest.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 15:40:50 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] What is this book? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Any information appreciated: "Encounter the Warrior's Heart: The Philosophy of Shinsei Hapkido: With Essays by Grandmasters on Life, Teaching, and Martial Arts" by Joseph Lumpkin, Daryl R. Covington Amazon.com shows it published in August 2003. They have no picture, and it lists for $24.95. A 512-page paperback, ISBN: 141077421X. I am terrible with names, but I want to say that I have seen these somewhere . . . maybe on here at some point? On their web site they say this about the book: "The wisdom of many of the greatest martial artists in the world is contained here." I know I have seen at least one name on the web site that I recognize: "NEW: The Shinsei Hapkido Federation welcomes Ian Cyrus as an Advisor to the System." I am always looking to add to my library of Hapkido material, any information on this publication would be greatly appreciated. Jim --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 16:41:04 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: KHF National Director Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 10/6/03 2:51:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: BTW: Mr. W's report is that he will be installed as national director for the KHF when Oh See Lim gets here. Makes no difference to me, but in the counseling profession we have something called "being found in an area of suspicion". It means that maybe noone can prove that a person has done something wrong, but they continually are found with their hands in way too close proximity to the cookie jar, so to speak. I figure if thats the kind of person the Koreans actually want in a position of responsibility maybe that speaks volumes about the kinds of people who are actually running the organization. Doesn't sound like the kind of folks I would want to have much to do with, ne? Does this mean he will be in control of all KHF dojang and promotions? Did he say this on "Radio Show" ? --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Eric Walker" To: Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 16:11:40 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: adding to it all... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. MacNeil wrote--- "I would like to start by saying that I truely enjoy reading the different (and similar) points of view in this forum. It is a pleasure to read well thought out questions and responses, and see that ppl with different opinions still have respect for the opinions of others. That being said, I think today I will participate rather than just read along. I currently train in Taekwondo (WTF), and only after a considerable amount of time did I test for my Black Belt rank. I too have thought of the way standards seem to have changed, and watch 7 year old 2nd and 3rd dans in dojangs, and it used to really get me down. It makes it difficult for others who do not train in Taekwondo to take us seriously. It took me almost 9 years to attain black belt rank. That is almost unheard of today in our style, but when I started, 6 to 8 years was quite normal. I have no complaints about how long it took me, and I really can not criticize those who get their black belt in a year and a half or two years because some of them are really good technically. However, they lack something that I am proud to have, experience. The amount of time that I wore each belt gave me the opportunity to really know what it was to be at that level. It taught me to appreciate even the smallest of improvements in my technique, and it taught me that belt colour is not everything. Train because you love the art, not the uniform. I can not only pass to my students the techniques and philosophy that I have learned from the Masters, but also my love for the art I practise, and the experiences that helped that love to grow. Sorry so long, and wishing all of you the best Yours in Taekwondo Keith MacNeil" Just a few thoughts along these lines... Master Toth has several times off-handedly remarked to me that he has noticed a tendency among some Korean Masters to hold back rank and advancement for people that seem to be more gifted/dedicated than other students. Perhaps this is due to higher expectations being placed on these students. There are some things that some people simply can't do. For example, there is a student in our dojang that probably will never be able to throw a head high roundhouse. It's not because he hasn't tried, more that his body mechanics won't allow it. He started martial arts in his mid thirties and may simply never be able to get his hips that loose. Now I could be wrong about this, he may someday become this flexible, but if not, so what? Should he always be held up at 3rd, 2nd or 1st gup? I kind of doubt it. He can be an effective martial artist without this move. On the other hand, we once had a student that was rather naturally gifted. However he was impatient, and often joined other classes/styles while training with us. He never made it past green belt and is no longer with us. As far as I know he's no longer training in any martial art at all. I gather that part of this slowing down is to test or determine where does that person stand in the sense of how they want to develop as a martial artist. Does someone like that simply view this as a hobby, or is he trying to "find himself" or what? Shouldn't we be careful how much and what techniques we teach to someone like that in the beginning? Part of this journey for me has been to realize that I have an obligation to pass on this knowledge to people that demonstrate a will and dedication to learning it. Isn't that part the human experience? Don't we pass on all human knowledge to those that wish to learn? I know this is an unfair comparison, but we don't teach a high school graduate that merely says he wants to be an orthopedic surgeon how to cut on someone's knee until he's demonstrated a willingness to work HARD at becoming that surgeon and dedicated a large part of his young life to it. I'll never be a surgeon, and I'll also never be the martial artist that Master Toth is and was as a young man, but I'll make a hard try at it. Perhaps one day I'll be able to teach a gifted student and bring them to a fuller understanding of what hapkido is and has meant to me. I guess what I'm trying to say is that even though there are black belts out there that don't adequately represent what many of us think they should, this occurs across the board in human society. It is the human condition, the Um to the Yang that makes us what we are. That reminds me of another thing that Master Toth said to me privately once. This was in reference to the difficulties we faced at times with the aforementioned green belt, "I'm not here to prove myself to any one. I'm here to teach..." If they truly want to learn, they will know this already. Sorry for the length of this rambling post... Eric --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Todd W Deininger" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:46:07 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sin Moo Instructor Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Below is the contact info for the 2004 Sin Moo Instructors Seminar on March 26, 27, and 28. As of today Ken McKenzie is heading in from NJ. Juerg Ziegler from Switzerland and a few other European instructors. Merril Jung is a possible. Any questions, contact Sean or me. Sean Bradley 7001 NE 164th St Kenmore, WA 98028 www.washingtonhapkido.com info@washingtonhapkido.com (425) 481-8183 --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] What is this book? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Any information appreciated: > > "Encounter the Warrior's Heart: The Philosophy of Shinsei > Hapkido: With Essays by Grandmasters on Life, Teaching, and > Martial Arts" by Joseph Lumpkin, Daryl R. Covington fyi, Master Covington is a member of the list... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 20:23:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] receptionist Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> As far as billing is concerned. You should take a real serious look at your cost to have someone else do the collecting for you. In my case, I found that the added expense did NOT warrant the extra cost. For example: they never were able to save a student who did not want to pay, and they never collected a penny that did not come voluntarily. I came up with a solution that seems to work fine for me. I simply went to a yearly system where students bring in a series of post dated cheques dated for the first of the month. I save the expense of collecting, and I have a lot more control over the financial aspects of my school. No one seemed to complain when I shifted over; because, with this system (saving collection dues) I was able to keep my fees from rising, and everyone was more than happy with that. The alternative was to increase dues, and I let the students make the choice:) Like you, I am not good on the phone, and the best investment one can make in his or her dojang is a good receptionist. Perhaps offering a reduced or free training might attract someone who enjoys talking on the phone, and that WILL make a huge difference in your enrollments as well as close the back door due to consistent follow ups and improved customer service. Sincerely, Rudy <> SJN Timmerman, Many thanks for the response. You bring an intersting point as just last month in Jackson Master Thomas was explaining to Master Mac and I how he uses Paypal's subscription feature to collect monthly tuition rather painlessly and for less than half what my billing company pays. You are also correct, the billing company frees me up of the time for all the regular payers, but the quiters or extremely late still require me to be involved or just write them off. What I do get is a publisher or rtf version of the newsletter which for the first 6 to 7 years of teaching I used to write myself. If I author the entire newsletter it takes me two months to find time to write one. You bring another wise point that was the premise behind my billing company selection. Pay an expert to do something you don't have time to be excellent at (receptionist). I like the barter idea so I will canvas my karate moms and young adult students for a good gaby with the potential to learn the sales scripts. I am also not really doing the 2-4-6 follow up calls that are oh so important for new white belts. I get close by testing them for 9th gup in 6-8 weeks, and being small enough to say hi to most of the karate mom's as they drop off their little angels :-) Finally a true receptionist would do a much better job at rescheduling intros and confirming them the same day. I like the check idea, but recent Georgia law renders them illegal. The closest we can get to that is checks writen and dated today and a fully executed hold agreement. So Paypal ala Master Thomas really sounds like a good deal, I would just need to do my own newsletter again... Thanks for the mentoring, neh... Respectfully yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest