Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 18:51:09 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #437 - 16 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Today's Topics: 1. studying under Choi (michael tomlinson) 2. Fw: Stick figure fight (Tom Kennelly) 3. Re: Master Terry (Dewitt, Garrett) 4. Re: Rank verification (J T) 5. Re: Affiliations/Memberships (Dewitt, Garrett) 6. RE: Student Lost Without a Master (Michael Rowe) 7. "Master" (J.R. West) 8. Eating (Ray Terry) 9. Ronin (Charles Richards) 10. RE: Tuition and paypal (Jason E. Thomas (Y!)) 11. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Karate_for_Christ_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 12. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Elephant_in_the_Livingroom?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 13. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Of_Human_Frailties?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 14. ITF-KATU (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 15. HKD Pioneers (Ali Alnasser) 16. Re: HKD Pioneers (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 12:25:14 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] studying under Choi Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I find it somewhat humorous to see how many older Korean masters studied under Choi Yong Sool and say he was their teacher but all their ranking comes from Ji Han Jae? Without mentioning any names I would say "most" of the influential Korean masters in the U.S. fall under this blanket. Is it just me or does anyone else smell something funny about this? Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Instant message with integrated webcam using MSN Messenger 6.0. Try it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Tom Kennelly" To: "dojang" Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 08:27:45 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Fw: Stick figure fight Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.hackernetwork.com/flash/stickdeathx.shtml --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Dewitt, Garrett" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 08:10:00 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Master Terry Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Ray Terry wrote: Mr. Hackworth, "he also claims to be a TKD Master and the four time Gold medal winner in the Korean National TKD Championship. This he told me to my face..." while he was eating. "While he has claimed to be a HKD 9th Dan and a 7th Dan and insists on calling himself a Grandmaster." Hello Master Terry. I concur 100% with this comment Sir. This was also verbalized to me, exactly as stated, face to face, when having lunch with Mr. Hackworth in Orlando, FL. May, 2000. Respectfully Master Garrett DeWitt NKMAA Member --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 06:19:25 -0700 (PDT) From: J T To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Rank verification Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Are you sure he's not 4th dan" I have been communicating with a person over in Korea who understands that his rank was 6th dan, but was totally amazed how he got there so fast was was astounded how, within a couple of months, went all the way to 8th dan. With repect, Jeremy T. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Dewitt, Garrett" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 08:36:54 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Affiliations/Memberships Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jim wrote: Don't get me wrong, I can see very good reasons to belong to larger organizations. I can also see an instructor requiring their students to join the organization they belong to for the purpose of having students' rank officially recognized, although I do not necessarily agree with that requirement in principle. Maybe there are practical considerations I do not have the experience to know or would know intuitively. Hello Jim I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I too have been taken to the cleaners - financially - on at least three occasions due to "memberships into international organizations." About four years ago, prior to becoming a member of the NKMAA, I lost at least seven to nine Black Belt students due to a specific "associations" deceitfulness. It took me a bit over one year to come around and really, really, really look for an honest and dignified Association to perhaps get involved in. I connected with Grandmaster Timmerman and questioned him for several months prior to filing for membership. He NEVER once bragged about any of his feats nor did he EVER verbally put down any other martial artist or organization. Now, for me, having my students become members of the NKMAA when they are promoted to eighth gup has been one of the very best decisions I have made in ten years of running a dojang. Although I teach Chung Do Kwan, the students are learning the NKMAA Hapkido curriculum, given directly from and supervised by Grandmaster Timmerman. They have a connection to just what they are doing and why. They can check out our Saja Nim on his website and having the membership, the one-to-one training times with Saja Nim and others at seminars and workshops has allowed for absolutely no lies, fabrications, no go betweens and for all of us here in Brainerd, zero financial abuse or loss. We all get what we paid for and a lot more. I gain nothing and would not accept anything for this e-mail post regarding the NKMAA. I am just very thankful that I was able to find Grandmaster Timmerman when I did and also the DoJang Digest. It is these individuals and others on this Digest who expose the fabricators and this allows for all of us to not only be continuously educated to these exploitations but also allows "us" small dojang owners to keep the finances where they belong and keep our doors open. Master Terry I commend you for the assistance you give all of us. Respectfully Master Garrett DeWitt NKMAA Member --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 09:28:23 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Student Lost Without a Master Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Lauren writes: <> While very admirable to encourage you to continue training your instructor was wrong to continue your training under his supervision, especially if he knew of your feelings. << I suspect that he does cares for me more than he is suppose too but never acted on it or he denied having feelings for me. My instructor is angry with me b/c I want to go to someone else to continue my training.>> He has no right to be angry, as a matter of fact he should have demanded it front the beginning. Students that develop crushes on their instructors is common. However, the instructor must never encourage it and never give an impression that the feelings will ever be returned. << My instructor just got married and may possibly on his way to becoming a father. I quit going to his school because I could not handle the stress. He says I can control my emotions. Since I have quit-I tried to find another instructor whose teaching methods are similar to my master's teaching method. But, the instructor is not as skilled and cannot take me any further than 1st degree black belt. Plus, there would be a conflict between the new instructor and old instructor since they both know each other. I decided not to go to the new instructor.>> The real question is does he truly have feelings for you or have you put them there in your mind? I had a student that took anything I ever said that was encouraging and nice as a sign of interest and she even though I loved her. I found this out finally when I got a divorce from my 1st wife. She thought I left for her. She made a play and made her intentions known. Once I found this out I removed her from my school. She still tries to find ways to come around and talk about training ideas. <> Problem is you were never in a school that taught that. You were in a school under a master that used your emotions, and is now angry for you wanting to move on. <> His problem, not yours. <> I don't think you are lost, actually you may have started to actually find yourself now. Michael Rowe mp_rowe@cox.net --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "J.R. West" To: Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 09:53:42 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] "Master" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mike T. said "Michael Tomlinson, master of nothing" Mike: That sounds vaguely familiar.....good thought..........J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 07:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Eating Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I concur 100% with this comment Sir. This was also verbalized to me, > exactly as stated, > face to face, when having lunch with Mr. Hackworth in Orlando, FL. May, > 2000. Interesting... I'm beginning to detect at least something that he is good at. :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 09:26:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Ronin Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> What does a student do when she/he is lost? I now understand that a student cannot survive without his/her master. It is hard to find a master who will trust you enough to pass his/her knowledge down to the student. <> Dear Lauren, Sounds like where I was in 1997/98, albeit at that time I had 13 years training instead of three, but the isue is very similar. I see a couple of options. 1. You could become an independent, train on your own, but with just three years of training that might be a bit much to take on. 2. You could go back to your original instructor and try to reconcile past issues and start fresh. From your post it sounds like this is the training that felt most comfortable to you. 3. You could let go of the concept of finding a new master, and find a mentor that works for you. What ever you decide, let me just share my humble opinion with you. Everyone who wants to make serious progress at something needs a mentor/coach, and needs that mentor/coach to have had more experiences in that area than them. Or put another way it is a very long and inefficient process to learn anything well without "qualified" instruction. If Ray (and Bruce) will allow me the bandwidth, I'll give you a little story to put it in perspective. Four guys start playing golf together every Saturday. None of them have ever played before. Jim Bob played High School Baseball and is pretty athletic and takes pride that he has the longest drives of the four and in the begining the lowest scores. Later his inaccuracy in driving starts to affect if he wins or looses so Jim Bob decides to fix this by going to the driving range with a case of beer every friday afternoon. Billy Ray likes the group so he just shows up every Saturday to have fun and play. Every christmas, birthday or fathersday his wife gives him new golf shoes, tees, videos, putters and accessories. Slick Willy is always third place on the scoreboard and so he gets tired of being next to last. He goes and finds an old golf pro who's won numerous trophies and take a series of private lessons. In a few months Slick Willy is the best player in the group and so he (having reached the adept level) quits taking lessons, and his decision is reinforced as he continues to beat the rest of the guys. Erkle has a PhD in Engineering and a slender, uncoordinated non-athletic build. He always looses the Saturday golf match, but he makes good money and all his friends and their golf gear fits in his Mercedes SUV. At the same time that Slick Willy starts lessons, Erkle finds a golf instructor that has played and cadddied on the pro circuit and now owns a gulf supply house and teaches private lessons. Erkle finds this instructor to be an excellent technician AND good at relating every detailed biomechanical aspect of golfing to Erkle in terms he can understand. Two years later Erkle is playing at or below par at most local courses and Slick Willy, Billy Ray and Jim Bob always seem to need to go to their kid's soccer game when Erkle wants to play a full 18.....So Erkle keeps going to his lessons, and enrolls his 12 year old son so he'll have someone to share the game with and mentor.... So the moral is be like Erkle, find a good mentor that relates well to you and stick with them until you exhaust all they have to teach. Whatever you do don't be a dumb Jock like Jim Bob and assume natural physical ability will always prevail. Billy Ray defines mediocre and the casual training attitude most Americans take with martial arts, if I don'tlike what I'm studying, I'll just get another video from someone with more credentials, or a facier competition bo staff will make me look better because it's lighter. Slick Willy is the classic eternal ChoDan. Someone who makes it to adept/shodan and decides I have learned all I need to know so I can coast on that skill alone. Erkle represents the lifelong student who is wise enough to seek out a lifelong mentor. What we sometimes find in studying martial arts is that we out grow or first mentor yet have invested some loyalty that makes it very uncomfortable to begin the process of finding the next/right mentor. Good Journey, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Jason E. Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Tuition and paypal Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 09:21:07 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I use PayPal as well. You can set up subscriptions, monthly, quarterly, 6 months or annual. This is a nice compromise from spot payments and annual contracts... The student's payment source gets debited and they have to proactively cancel... I us PayPal for tuition, registration and even belt test fees. Regards, Jason > -----Original Message----- > From: Hapkido Self Defense Center [mailto:hkd@fuse.net] > Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 7:41 AM > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] Tuition and paypal > > For what it is worth, I started using paypal for tuition on my website a > while back and it appears to work. I also use it for new students, who are > then sent to a detailed registration form, hidden on the website and they > then choose when they start, etc. Jere R. Hilland > www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:18:54 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Karate_for_Christ_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Daryl: ".....Karate for Christ is a brotherhood of Christian Martial Artist...." Thanks for taking the time to make those relationships clear. I was also glad to see that the focus was on supporting ministry rather that using MA as a venue for promoting Christianity. I think your approach is right on the money. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:37:43 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Elephant_in_the_Livingroom?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Lauren: "......I have studied taekwondo for 3 years. During the years-I trained work under emotional stress due to feelings that I had for my instructor. My instructor was aware of this and encouraged me to keep training. He would always tell me to meditate when I was troubled. He always continued to push me to come to class. I suspect that he does cares for me more than he is suppose too but never acted on it or he denied having feelings for me. My instructor is angry with me b/c I want to go to someone else to continue my training....." You will probably get a lot of advice on this one as what you are describing is a dynamic that is all too common in KMA schools. Mostly, though, people don't want to talk about. Maybe your post will change that. For myself, heres' a couple of cents. 1.) I don't think your old teacher is shooting straight with you by giving you mixed messages. If he has feelings, fine, it happens. If you have feelings, fine, it happens. Neither of you have chosen to act on those feelings, which is probably even better. The problem comes in where you recognize the need to move on and he is not helping you do that. In my book, if I can't help a student then it becomes a matter of making an appropriate referral to someone who can. 2.) I don't think you are shooting straight with yourself by comparing any new teacher with your old teacher. Every teacher will have good and bad qualities and there is quite a variance in their values and teaching abilities. I think you need to remember why you got into KMA in the first place. If you have the abilities you say that you do, you next teachers will remain what they should be, guides for your growth--- nothing more and nothing less. 3.) If you are a quality martial artist you don't NEED a teacher. Its nice to have one and they certainly can accelerate your growth. But you have quite a bit of material at this point to keep yourself busy until the next teacher presents themselves. If you can't train unless you have an audiance, this, too, will give you something to think about. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:47:57 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Of_Human_Frailties?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rudy: "......I actually quit martial arts (for a short while) because I thought the back injury I had sustained at work made me ineffective as an Instructor. I guess feeling sorry for myself was a natural reaction to being laid up for nearly two years after being so active......" Sometimes when I think about an issue like this I sit back and wonder what all the bitching is about regarding certs and licenses and organizations. Your post really helped to put things back in perspective for me. Most of these truely important issues are not things that folks want to talk about on a public venue like this. I'm talking about things like getting old and losing ones' abilities, coming back from losing a mugging, sleeping with ones' students, misappropriating school or organizational funds and so forth. Oh, I know. We're all monkeys in the same zoo and all of that. But the fact is that most folks don't want to be known for being human or having frailties. In case you're wondering where this is going, I am writing to say "thank you" for not hiding behind your rank or standing and coming out front to share some pretty personal thoughts. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 17:28:01 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] ITF-KATU Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Manuel: Why did they not give your certificate when you were actually promoted? Jere R. Hilland www.hapkidoselfdefense.com --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "Ali Alnasser" To: Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:25:56 +0900 (KST) Subject: [The_Dojang] HKD Pioneers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I found an interesting picture online featuring various HKD pioneers. http://www.dur.ac.uk/hapkido.club/images/masterkim/grandmasterwithall.htm [TABLE NOT SHOWN][TABLE NOT SHOWN][IMAGE] --__--__-- Message: 16 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] HKD Pioneers To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 19:45:48 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I found an interesting picture online featuring various HKD pioneers. > > http://www.dur.ac.uk/hapkido.club/images/masterkim/grandmasterwithall.htm Also interesting in that there appears to be a couple of Europeans/Americans in the picture. Or are my eyes failing me.?. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest