Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:07:12 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #441 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Down Unda (Charles Richards) 2. Re: [The_Dojang] http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/promotion/yudanja.asp?div=5 (TKDTOM) 3. Mst. Roena (rich hodder) 4. Welcome, etc. (DrgnSlyr5@aol.com) 5. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Funny=3F_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Does_not_really_exist?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_AAAaaaaggghhhhh!!!!?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 8. Re: ITF-KATU (Dave Steffen) 9. Re: ITF-KATU (Dave Steffen) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 09:28:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Down Unda Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> And NO, we are not letting him go any more than he has to, twice a year!!!! Did you meet him first time this year? Or have you participated in his seminars before? I have not personally gone overseas and participated in any other seminars. However, we are fortunate that Sir invites and brings out on a regular basis wonderful people out here. I have had the opportunity to meet and learn from Do Ju Nim Ji (before anyone out there questions how to refer to him, this is how he wanted us to call him when he was here both times *smile*), Dr Kimm, GM Timmerman (what a wonderful seminar it was, just recently like a few weeks ago we were fortunate to do a few days of seminars with him and Sabumnim Lorne), and J.R West and the hapkido lady I miss dearly, Mrs Master West. <> I met Booth Sabomnim about two years ago in Jackson, and had the pleasure of him stoping by Master James Allison's Atlanta Hapkido Dojang for a training. Not only did we all learn some new techniques, and refinements on old ones, I still can't decide if I was in more pain on the mat or laughing at jokes over a full course Korean dinner at a local Korean rest. I'd say with M Booth as your instructor, teaching for him, and training with Dr. Kimm, Gm Timmerman, and GM West you should have a good deal of shine to keep the rust awat, neh? Second issue. When you begin to teach and train as a dan member and instructor, you are correct, you must keep two schedules and commitments, one obligation to teach your gups, and another to yourself to train and grow. THe longer you teach, the more you see this committment to your personal training as really another thing you do for the benefit of your students....hmmm. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "TKDTOM" To: Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:49:06 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: [The_Dojang] http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/promotion/yudanja.asp?div=5 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Who are the 10th Dans? I was surprised to see so many, five. Also, who are the U.S.A. 9th Dans? I know that GM E.B. Sell is one of those 32 9th Dans. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Terry" To: "The_Dojang" Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 1:17 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/promotion/yudanja.asp?div=5 Interesting info from the Kukkiwon site. http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/promotion/yudanja.asp?div=5 Dan/Poom numbers for Korea and Overseas. Also click on "The present condition for people holding kukkiwon Dan in each country" for details of each country. Interesting to note that there are only 40 8th Dans in the USA. Seems like every TKD instructor I hear of is a Kukkiwon 8th Dan. Ray Terry --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "rich hodder" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 18:56:50 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Mst. Roena Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mr. Metnerl, I have known Robert Rhone for some 30 odd years. When did he become Roberto Roena?? You are right though, he is one of the best TKD players around. We have been on the mat with and against each other for about as long as I can remember. Rich Hodder _________________________________________________________________ Instant message in style with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 15:14:42 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Welcome, etc. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Gaye writes: > "...it is the students' time to learn, train, practice and experience. " > > "So in short, I will have to say again that teaching has slowed down my > actual training and cut down my own training time." First off, welcome, Ms. T (Gaye), to the list! It's nice to have another female HKD voice here. I have heard good things about you from Master Booth, he speaks highly of you. I relate strongly to what you posted. I also don't believe in using the students' time for one's own training. I sometimes kick with my classes, but more for demonstration than training. Otherwise, I find myself checking my own form rather than focusing on the students and making corrections where needed. When I come in on days I am not assigned to teach, as a co-owner of the school, I usually get pulled away to other duties. The other instructors are busy teaching, so I leave the mat to answer the phone, talk to parents/students/new prospects, or simply can't get through the required paperwork in time to get my own training in. Sometimes I am needed to help teach large classes. Also, many times there is no mat space available. On my teaching days, I try to use the time between classes if I have no intro lessons scheduled. Sometimes, some of that time is taken in going over material and teaching instruction with our newer 1st degrees who are beginning to teach. The training up to 1st degree is the easy part. What a luxury to just show up and train! It takes much more dedication to continue training when one has responsibilities in the school, physical limitations or challenges from the already-completed years of training, and mainly oneself to provide motivation. I have to remind myself of what I tell our students - What is a black belt? A white belt who never quit. In the same way, what is a 3rd degree, 4th, 5th, etc.? A 1st degree who never quit. We are fortunate in that our instructor sets the example. Not only does he continue to train with his instructor of 30+ years, he trains with us (BBs), and has no hesitation to get on the mat to learn from others (though that opportunity is very rare for him, being our GM's #1). You've landed in good company here, with the people who haven't quit! Again, welcome. :) Sharon Tkach Jang Mu Hapkido --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 15:26:50 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Funny=3F_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Michael: "......Is it just me or does anyone else smell something funny about this?....." In my book it WOULD be funny if it weren't so pathetic. From all that I have read and heard Choi Yong Suls' "instruction" could be unpleasant-- on its BEST days. I notice that not a few of the folks who claim Choi as their teacher were with him a few years at best, and even those who actually trained with him may not have trained with him personally but trained under one of his instructors with Chois' supervision. Its a tough thing being cranked on 5 days a week, 12 hours a day for forty years or whatever else some of these folks claim they have done. It begins to sound like the same crap one hears claimed such as multiple World or Korean Championships. BTW have you ever noticed that noone claims to be an Olympic Champion? Could it be because such a title would just be too easy to check? I would have a lot more respect for someone would come up front and say something like the following. "Yeah I studied Hapkido at a pretty assorted range of places for a few years. Now, I have started my own school now and I try to live up to the standards that I think Yong Sul Choi would have wanted me to." FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 15:32:47 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Does_not_really_exist?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mary: ".....Please define Grand Master for me? Is it the end of the journey or is it the beginning?...." There is no such thing. It is a title made up by individuals in the KMA to lend prestige and authority to what they say and do. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 15:40:39 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_AAAaaaaggghhhhh!!!!?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dave: ".....Not picking on you, Bruce, I just don't think you really mean what you say in the first sentence of this paragraph. New comers reading this might interpret what you say as a good cause to dump their teachers (and their fees), and embark on a video learning experience. And I am quite certain you are not a believer in learning a curriculum in that manner......" DID I EVER SCREW THAT UP!!!! That was suppose to be a tongue-in-cheek crack meant to convey the idea that "why worry about having a teacher--- just get yourself some tapes and books and then make-up your background to suit your purpose!!" Needless to say I completely blew it. MY BAD!! Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Dave Steffen Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 15:03:29 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ITF-KATU Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: "Manuel Maldonado" > Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 15:07:16 -0700 > > So what are you saying? I should join Master Choi's organization? > What about the money I've sent to GM Hwang? I wouldn't presume to tell you what to do! I was mainly pointing out that a lot of others have had the same problem - including us - and, well... we feel for ya, man! ;-) Certainly, Master Choi is _one_ option (depending on how you feel about him, the election that put him in his position, etc) that others in your position have gone with. We're pretty happy so far. > Do I get a lawyer, sue him, what? Potentially, yes. The total for the BB certifications we've sent him, and not gotten, is about $1500. We are talking with several others about some kind of lawsuit, but it's not clear that it's really gonna happen. > I'm sick and tired of this BS and quite frankly would like to just > be rid of this whole situation. I'd like to be able to take my KATU > Dan Certificate and transfere it over to WTF although I've heard > from several of the friends on this digest that yes it can be done > and no it can't be done. I'd just like to try and find out if it > can be done, man, I feel like all this bla,bla,bla will make > somebody dizzy. Having spent some time in the WTF (loooong story), I'm absolutely sure somebody out there will transfer your rank over, although I'd be _really_ suprised if you didn't have to pay the standard WTF dan ranking fee (which is much more reasonable than the old ITF fees). My experience with the WTF was not good, so for us going back there wasn't an option. Personally, if Master Choi & Co. screw us over (as literally _every_ other Master we've worked with has **), I'm giving up on TKD organizations completely! ** Note on the above statement: I don't personally feel like GM Hwang has screwed us. I feel very much like the _ITF_ screwed us, and it just so happens that GM Hwang was our ITF representative. (That's the _old_ ITF, and the current "North Korean" ITF. Christ, what a mess!) > GM Lim is helping me out. Lets see where that will take me. I just > hope that some day I can sit back and laugh at all this and not > have to worry about all this. I feel that some day the ITF will no > longer exist as we know it. That may be. I hear through the grapevine that the actual ITF copyrights and so forth were owned by Gen. Choi; when he died, they passed to his wife, who gave them to Master Choi. On this basis - and on many others, like actually taking care of people - I'm pretty sure that there will eventually be only one ITF (the one Master Choi is in charge of), and the other ITF groups will either merge, change their name and go their own way, or splinter and do both (which is happening a lot right now). [...] > pray that I too can do the same. P.S. I do in fact have a 2nd Dan > WTF that I earned while stationed in Korea with the US ARMY. Yeah, I've got a 2nd Dan Kukkiwon from 'way back - had to pay for it twice. I paid for my 3rd (again, twice!), never got it. When I tested for 4th, I refused to pay on the basis that I should get my 3rd first. Master Sung, Dal Cho was our Master at the time; he kind of avoided me after that. What's with these guys? :-( Anyway - end of rant. ;-) Good luck, Sir, hope you find a good place to be! -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr Dave Steffen, Ph.D. Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede tkd-physics@comcast.net Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Dave Steffen Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 15:33:05 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ITF-KATU Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: "t.metzner1" > Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 08:17:12 -0400 > Subject: [The_Dojang] ITF-KATU now USA-ITF Hi Tom! Didn't know you were a "the_Dojang-er". > Dr.Steffen, > > You are right to point out some of the difficulties obtaining rank > certficiates from ITF in Vienna. This has been a long standing > problem. I have found it takes months, sometimes more. But this > should not be a reflection of Grandmaster Hwang. On the contrary, > he has been an advocate for the two individuals you mention. Right - my feeling has been that it's more the ITF's problem than GM Hwang's. I still have tremendous respect for him, even though I supported our move to Master Choi. > I have met both Mr. Karstadt and Mr. Roena. I was a coach with both > of them on a couple of American Junior Teams in 1995 and 1998. I > like Mr. Karstadt and found his son John to be one of the best > fighters in the country. I also respect Mr. Roena for his martial > arts ability. He is dedicated and one of the fittest people I have > ever met. Heck, we're still trying to figure out what planet he's from! ;-) > But both turned to GM Hwang after having troubles with GM > Serref. GM Hwang convinced General Choi to allow both men to come > into KATU under him when GM Serref wanted them both kicked out of > the ITF. Unfortunately GM Hwang was unable to secure the > certificates for them, there were too many obstacles. But he > granted them both 6th Dan rank through KATU. When ever they were > present, they were introduced as 6th Degree Black Belts and as the > highest ranked students under GM Hwang, even putting them ahead of > Mr. Oulundsen, 5th Dan but his own student for 25 years! They were > seated at places of honor next to GM Hwang and he never said a > dispararging word about either. Absolutely! GM never treated Mr. Roena as anything less than a 6th. We were, generally, very happy in KATU. The ITF certification issue was A) a matter of integrity, and B) a sore spot with us - as every other group we'd ever tried to work with had screwed us on it. > I understand why you want that certificate, I would too if I paid > the money. But don't blame GM Hwang. He went to bat for people, > even those in disfavor with other GMs. He will sort out the > problems with the ITF. The last time he was out here, his comment was more-or-less that he and GM Rhee, Ki Ha were going to "clean house". I would _really_ not want to be in their way. ;-) Our issue - which we discussed extensively with GM Hwang, Mr. Karstadt, and others, were mainly that we had been waiting for _a decade_, and we're not getting any younger. This whole thing was beginning to have a serious impact on our TKD careers. I should point out that one of the other problems we had was the North Korean leadership. Some of our people had big problems with that, particularly the law-enforcement officers, and we lost some schools (which we are now working with again). Personally, I'm uncomfortable with the issue. Some small part of our test fees are going to Mr. Chang Ung's salary, some part of which is (presumably) going into back accounts in North Korea, some small part of which is (presumably) taken by the NK government, etc. etc. Even if I could live with that, my professional career lies, for the moment, with military contractors. Believe me, the whole thing with Mr. Chang Ung (I met him when he flew in to Denver last fall) was a _big_ deal with the investigators. My continued employment depends on maintaining a DoD clearance of some description. Given the current state of the economy, I can't justify risking my family's financial future by maintaining any kind of relationship with his organization. Between that, and a _decade_ long wait (I emphasize that again) for international recognition, the decision to go with Master Choi was easier than... well.. easier than we thought it would be. > Meanwhile, his organization (USA-ITF) retains its strong core. And > I guarentee, his door will remain open to you and any others who > wish to return. That's good to know, and I really do appreciate you passing that on. Mr. Roena and I greatly valued our personal relationship with GM Hwang, and we know (and deeply regret) that he took it personally when we left. Hoping that we can all transcend the politics and get back to working on our side kicks (which is what we're all really here for anyway)... ;-) TaeKwon! -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr Dave Steffen, Ph.D. Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede tkd-physics@comcast.net Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest