Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:31:19 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #446 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Re: AAAaaaaggghhhhh!!!! (Buffy) 2. RE: Re: kukkiwon dan list (Buffy) 3. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Congratulations?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 4. Mook Jong (Ken McDonough) 5. Agreeing with Bruce (Charles Richards) 6. Tang So Do (Charles Richards) 7. Re Cho Sun Se Bup (Steve Kincade) 8. RE: Tang So Do (Jason E. Thomas (Y!)) 9. Sword Dance (Rudy Timmerman) 10. Re: A question concerning Tang Soo Do (Pat Corbett) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Buffy" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: AAAaaaaggghhhhh!!!! Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:29:31 +0200 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "DID I EVER SCREW THAT UP!!!! That was suppose to be a tongue-in-cheek crack meant to convey the idea that "why worry about having a teacher--- just get yourself some tapes and books and then make-up your background to suit your purpose!!" Needless to say I completely blew it. MY BAD!! Best Wishes, Bruce" LOL - Irony - not always notable in mails :oD Thomas. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Buffy" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: kukkiwon dan list Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:35:22 +0200 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Who are the 10th Dans? I was surprised to see so many, five. Also, who are the U.S.A. 9th Dans? I know that GM E.B. Sell is one of those 32 9th Dans." Maybe you could convince them to make an online data base to look up in. Hwa Rang Do list: http://www.hwarangdo.com/certif.htm "Search for HWA RANG DOR Black Sash" and enter "Enter Full or Partial Name:" http://www.hwarangdo.com/blacksash.cgi Every black sash with picture. Thomas. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:28:29 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Congratulations?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Luke: ".....It has come to my attention that these new "basic" forms are identical or very similar to the forms other dojangs have been using and was just wondering if there was pressure to conform to a standard international program....." Of course I can't comment on what the motive might be. In fact, not being a Tang Soo Do practitioner I can't speak intelligently to any of the forces that shape curriculum development for that art. However, I DO applaud any effort to encourage uniformity of material and solidarity in teaching goals for an art. I'm not saying that a teacher shouldn't use his best skills and apply his own priorities in bringing the best out in his students. I just don't think that every time a person has a difference of opinion with his organization that he immediately breaks away and starts his own World Federation. Sometimes, as I read some of the posts here, Luke, I think I hear people wanting at least SOME effort to be made to assure that the art one is learning is somehow authentic Korean MA. I am also sure that we can spend a lot of time talking about just exactly what "authentic" Korean MA can/might be. My opinion in that case would probably be no more or less valid then anyone elses'. However, I will suggest that when a teacher makes an effort to adjust his curriculum in deference to a greater standard, I think everyone benefits all the way around. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 06:21:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken McDonough To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Mook Jong Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Does anyone here use a Mook Jong in their training (wooden dummy); any recommendations on manufacturers ? Price, reputation, etc. I live in an apartment so free standing is important. Thanks, Big Ken --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:09:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Agreeing with Bruce Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> I just want to make sure that what I intended to say is what you actually heard. <> I think so. <> The issue of someone starting their own art, in my book, is only tangentially related to the issue I was addressing in my post. I would probably go 'round 'n 'round with you regarding the cohesion of your curriculum and authenticity of its content as relates to KMA. But that is not the issue I was talking about, though, coincidentally your response was right on the money. <> You're right. In terms of forms I would be lying to myself to say my hyung sets are anything other than those of Funakoshi Sensei as taught to Lee Sabomnim and modified by Hwang Sabomnim. Which coincidentally would make them Japanese adapted derivatives of Okinawan Kenpo. Not very Korean, neh. But then all of us kick-punch KMA's are based on these forms or the tools from that tool box, so none of our forms are KMA. Now I know here some TKD folks will jump in and say, but our patterns were develped by the Korean Masters when the KTA and/or WTF were formed. My response was look closely at the MDK forms and then the "new" forms and you will see many of the same tools just arranged differently in someone else's tool box. The closest any of us kick-punch guys can get to KMA would be the SBD guys who are doing the Chil Sung and Yuk Rho sets. Of course, most of these Korean Masters had a third dan or lower black belt in Japanese style karate, but that's another post... So I'd propose that at least with forms my curriculum is authentic, but not very Korean,neh :-) <> IMVVHO I think that it is quite possible for someone to teach a very authentic KMA and still have the ethics of a goat on Viagra. <> Seen that. <> On the other hand, there are teachers who provide a quality education and could care less who think of them or what is thought. So, Charles, while you and I can debate about the content of your curriculum, delivering it with honor and integrity will guarentee that you will never hear a discouraging word outa me. :-) <> This honor and integrity are the cornestones of the Do in Funakoshi Sensei's Karrrate-do and Hwang Sabomnim's Tang Soo Do. Those parts of the art I feel are our roots our tradition, and what makes my school Tang Soo Do Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:38:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Tang So Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> For the last two years I have been studying Tang Soo Do. I have trained hard, practised techniques and always sought to learn more. In my search (through the internet and collegues) I found that many other Tang Soo Do dojangs had different forms. This suprised me as I was under the impression that Tang Soo Do had a world-wide curriculum that it's students adhered to. However, my instructor has begun teaching us "Kiche" hyungs which, upon my inquiry were explained as simpler forms to cover basics better. It has come to my attention that these new "basic" forms are identical or very similar to the forms other dojangs have been using and was just wondering if there was pressure to conform to a standard international program. I'm not trying to uncover any conspiracy or question the wisdom of my instructors, I was just wondering if anyone could give me help on why this is so. <> Dear Luke, Glad to see another TSD player on the list. The Kicho Hyungs are the basic beginner forms created by Funakoshi Sensei to teach to beginners before teaching the Hein patterns (Pyung Ahns). People who follow Lee, won Kyuk and Hwang, Kee and there lineage of martial arts do these as the beginner forms. People who follow the WTF/KTA split version of Chung Do Kwan and/or Moo Duk Kwan either do the Chon Ji pattern for beginners, their own created beginners sets, or the basic Palgwe or TaeKyuk forms. There are about nine national/international Tang Soo Do organizations that I am aware of, most are in reality national. Bernard Redfield has a pretty good TSD page with most of there links. Yours in jung do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Steve Kincade" To: Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:03:05 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re Cho Sun Se Bup Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce asked: That is the way we (Han Mu Do) practice this form, too. In Mo Eui Won's Mu BI Gi, published in 1621, there are illustrations and directions of 24 sets of Korean traditional sword techniques called Cho Sun Se Bub (Sword Skills of Korea). The illustrations show a long, straight sword. Dr. Kimm tells me that the unique characteristic of Korean sword skill is to block first and then counter attack. Where Japanese swords were designed to kill the opponent first, the Korean swords were designed to defend first, then counter. The version of this form I currently practice was interpreted by Grand Master (I know how much you hate that term, but he deserves it) Kim, Jae Il. This article has some interesting info http://www.mooto.com/eng/webzine/news_view.asp?news_no=701 Steve Kincade --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Jason E. Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Tang So Do Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 12:07:37 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net So the Kicho Hyung are derivative of the Taikyoku kata from Shotokan? I knew of the Heian/Pinan/Pyong-ahn connection but not the Kicho/Taikyoku connection. Thanks for the bit of historical info: Is there a TSD version of Ten No Kata? (http://smccd.net/accounts/larson/comb404/comb404_tennokata.htm) Regards, Jason E. Thomas Chief Instructor North Austin Tae Kwon Do www.natkd.com > Dear Luke, > Glad to see another TSD player on the list. The Kicho Hyungs are the > basic beginner forms created by Funakoshi Sensei to teach to beginners > before teaching the Hein patterns (Pyung Ahns). People who follow Lee, > won Kyuk and Hwang, Kee and there lineage of martial arts do these as > the beginner forms. People who follow the WTF/KTA split version of > Chung Do Kwan and/or Moo Duk Kwan either do the Chon Ji pattern for > beginners, their own created beginners sets, or the basic Palgwe or > TaeKyuk forms. > > There are about nine national/international Tang Soo Do organizations > that I am aware of, most are in reality national. > Bernard Redfield has a pretty good TSD page with most of there links. > > > Yours in jung do, > > Charles Richards > www.mojakwan.com > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search > http://shopping.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 23:59:16 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Sword Dance Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > BTW: Does anyone know the derivation of the Korean term for "dance" > as in "sword dance"? The reason I ask is that I have been corrected a > number of times by my sword teacher for calling a sword form > a "hyung" instead of the more appropriate "bup". I have noticed, > however, that an increasing number of folks refer to sword forms > as "sword dance". Its no big issue just one of those little things > I get curious about. Anyone? In Kuk Sool, there is a form called Gum Moo Hyung that they also call Sword Dance Form. it is NOT a sword from, but it is a form that was supposedly practiced during the time when owning swords was forbidden. The story goes on to tell how Korean martial artists practiced "Gum Moo Hyung" in order to keep up their sword practice. Bup is often referred to as "principle". If your teacher calls his forms Bup, he likely wants the practice you perform to be know as the sword principle. BTW, it is quite possible that the Kuk Sul Do folks are former Kuk Sool Masters. I just wonder why they have not been sued for TM infringement. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:44:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Pat Corbett Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] A question concerning Tang Soo Do To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Luke I can only relate to this as from a newer students perspective (just received my black belt earlier this year). I know there are a number of different associations and break off's and it might be the fact that each association has it's own take on forms, sparring, etc. When my youngest son first started studying martial arts, he was in one association and due to the insturctor moving, then he had to change associations. Some of the forms were the same while others were not. Hope this helps a little. Luke Edwards wrote: For the last two years I have been studying Tang Soo Do. I have trained hard, practised techniques and always sought to learn more. In my search (through the internet and collegues) I found that many other Tang Soo Do dojangs had different forms. This suprised me as I was under the impression that Tang Soo Do had a world-wide curriculum that it's students adhered to. However, my instructor has begun teaching us "Kiche" hyungs which, upon my inquiry were explained as simpler forms to cover basics better. It has come to my attention that these new "basic" forms are identical or very similar to the forms other dojangs have been using and was just wondering if there was pressure to conform to a standard international program. I'm not trying to uncover any conspiracy or question the wisdom of my instructors, I was just wondering if anyone could give me help on why this is so. Thanks Tang Soo - Luke _________________________________________________________________ E-mail just got a whole lot better. New ninemsn Premium. Click here http://ninemsn.com.au/premium/landing.asp _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Pat Corbett Jr. Pleasant Gap, PA Cho Dan World Tang Soo Do Association --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest