Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 03:03:45 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #447 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Mook Jong (ABurrese@aol.com) 2. Re: sword form/dance (Michael Whalen) 3. TSD patterns (Charles Richards) 4. reply to Bruce: sword terms/Chosun Sebup (A. Boyd) 5. Re: Mook Jong (Jye nigma) 6. Re: Sword Dance (Jye nigma) 7. Re: Point of order (Jye nigma) 8. Addendum for Bruce: sword stuff (A. Boyd) 9. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_One_more_time?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 10. Mooto Article on Choson SeBub / Korean Style elements (A. Boyd) 11. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_A_quick_double-check?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:39:29 -0400 From: ABurrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Mook Jong Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ken, Michael Janich wrote a book on how to make your own Mook Jong that is available through Paladin. I have never read this book, only have seen it in the catalog, so can't say one way or another anything else about it. But it may be something of interest to you. Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Michael Whalen" To: "dojang digest" Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:53:28 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: sword form/dance Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "In Kuk Sool, there is a form called Gum Moo Hyung that they also call Sword Dance Form. it is NOT a sword from, but it is a form that was supposedly practiced during the time when owning swords was forbidden." Yes, that's the way I understand it, too. However there is a straight sword form called Juhng Guhm Hyung and when executed looks as though it could be called a dance. Very flowing and fluid. michael whalen KSWnut --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:04:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] TSD patterns Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> So the Kicho Hyung are derivative of the Taikyoku kata from Shotokan? I knew of the Heian/Pinan/Pyong-ahn connection but not the Kicho/Taikyoku connection. Thanks for the bit of historical info: Is there a TSD version of Ten No Kata? <> Yes sir, and Tekki = Naihanji = Chulgi and from previous posts, you can see the names for Kosanku, Gankaku, Jitte, Gojushiho, Wansu, Hangetsu and Jion. Some Shotokan folks of Funakoshi decent do not practice Rho Hai which Tang Soo Do does. As to Ten No Kata, sort of. This is another example of us KMA folks Koreanizing something. In most TSD/SBD schools step sparring is practiced. The ritual of standing bow, followed by step back into down block and then attack for Uke, and return to ready posture is preserved from Ten No Kata. Many of the one steps practiced are similar to the original Ten No Kata, but some organizations practice as many as 60 one steps. Just so Bruce can get onto me about modifying the standards. I keep the standing bow, but Uke steps back into an on gaurd posture and then punches. Following the multi-range and muscle memory philosophy we don't do memorized and standardized one steps, we ask students to do their 5 to 15 best, depending on their rank... Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:42:09 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] reply to Bruce: sword terms/Chosun Sebup Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, The swords we use are sabres and so are technically 'do' (pronounced doe as in female deer). The straight, double edge blade is technically referred to as a gom (which incidentally sounds like the name "Tom" - albeit with a G not a T). However, the word 'gom' is used to mean sword - generic, plain ol' sword with no distinction made whatsoever as to form or function. A further word is "kal" which gets associated with knives but actually used as we would use the word blade (as in bladed weapon, don't touch the blade, be careful of the blade, there's a blade on the floor, aargh...the blade!). Chosun Sebub was developed by a university professor here in Korea to recreate forms for practicing techniques for the court sword (a gom in the technical sense). As such, you should see it performed with a straight, double edged sword. I haven't paid much attention to his full curriculum yet, but it is more than likely there is sabre work in there as well (for marketing purposes if nothing else). I was just taken by the lack of mythical history and made a note about him for future reference. In the end, things are what they are, but they are also what they are called. ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:06:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Mook Jong To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I use one. Honestly unless you're in a place with a china town or plenty of martial art suppliers, your best bet would be to build one. Now, I say this because the actual wooden dummy doesn't cost alot at all, but the weight is what adds the big bucks....the thing is heavy. Since you live in an apartment, I wouldn't suggest keeping this think in the apt unless you're on the ground level because of the noise from you striking it. But anyhow, back to what you wanted to know.... I personally would suggest a free standing and spinning dummy vs the stationary wall mounted one since you're in an apt. You might want to check out: http://www.woodendummy.net/intro.html http://www.superiormartialarts.com/cgi-bin/uniform/perlshop.cgi?ACTION=thispage&thispage=wingchun.html&ORDER_ID=316324304&affiliate=!affiliate! --- Ken McDonough wrote: > Does anyone here use a Mook Jong in their training > (wooden dummy); any recommendations on manufacturers > ? Price, reputation, etc. > > I live in an apartment so free standing is > important. > > Thanks, > > Big Ken > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product > search > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:16:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Sword Dance To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Do you think that kuk sool won could successfully sue them (kuk sool do) even though the names aren't exactly the same? Jye --- Rudy Timmerman wrote: >> BTW, it is quite possible that the Kuk Sul Do folks > are former Kuk Sool > Masters. I just wonder why they have not been sued > for TM infringement. > Sincerely, > Rudy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:46:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Point of order To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Capoeira depending on style and maestra is a great system of martial arts. I've learned capoeira but am really more interested in African martial arts. Fortunately living on the east coast, I've been able to learn styles that are usually difficult to get to....everything from temple boxing to ninjutsu....you've got to love it! *I've seen quite a few martial arts places on the west coast as well, I wonder if those in the mid west have a large variety as well. Jye --- John Wallace wrote: > The capoeira article was interesting. There are a > couple of clubs in > Berkeley (CA), just up the road from where I am. > Not really my cup of tea > though. You might want to give the attribution of > the article: > http://www.capoeira-angola.org/what_is_capoeira.htm > > Respectfully > John Wallace > I Dan, TKD > Fremont, CA > > ------------------------------- > 2. About Capoeira Angola...an article (Jye nigma) > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 16:32:01 -0700 (PDT) > From: Jye nigma > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] About Capoeira Angola...an > article > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > What is Capoeira Angola? > > The etymology of the word capoeira is disputed by > some > scholars. Some Brazilian writers claim it is from > the > Amerindian Tupi language group and means an area of > bush that has been cleared by burning or cutting > down. > In Portuguese, the language of Brazil, it also means > a > big chicken coop or a place where birds are > fattened. > Kongo scholar K. Kia Bunseki Fu-Kiau thinks that > capoeira is really a deformation of the kikongo word > Kipura/kipula. According to Fu-Kiau "Both pura > and... > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:00:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Addendum for Bruce: sword stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I forgot to answer one of your questions directly. Do-Bub could be used and understood in a martial arts context if the listener knows what a 'do' is. For example, a few years ago a small group attempted to cash in on Haidong Gumdo and Kumdo both by organizing a curriculum based on both. The name chosen was Haidong Do-Bub. It would be my suggestion to refer to things by whatever name your instructor or sources use. While it might seem more correct to us to be specific and use a term like 'Do-bub' it really isn't. ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:49:04 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_One_more_time?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Charles: ".....You're right. In terms of forms I would be lying to myself to say my hyung sets are anything other than those of Funakoshi Sensei as taught to Lee Sabomnim and modified by Hwang Sabomnim. Which coincidentally would make them Japanese adapted derivatives of Okinawan Kenpo. Not very Korean, neh....." I know I probably ask this every time the subject comes up but bear with me yet one more time. If you are reasonably certain that what you are practicing in your Tang Soo Do curriculum are variations of the Shotokan forms from Japan have you ever given serious thought to backing up to the Okinawan versions of the same hyung/kata so as to get a bit closer to the source material? After WW II quite a few Japanese arts tried to circle back to the Okinawan traditions and pick-up many of the finer points of combat, or culture, or intent, or what-have-you knowing that Funakoshi, and his son and Nakayama had in their turn taken out a good deal of this. I guess if you know that you are using this material anyhow and have no qualms about it maybe it would serve you better to get a little closer to the trunk rather than hang around on the branches. Whatcha think? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:04:11 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Mooto Article on Choson SeBub / Korean Style elements Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I liked this article a lot - for two reasons. The first reason is that the founders of the curriculum identified their living sources (more or less), their print sources (more or less) and their quality as interpreters of those sources. Good stuff and in short supply. I also liked the article because if you know what the quotes refer to, you know that they indirectly say: "I studied Taichi Jian." It is unfortunate that the translator's English skill wasn't up to the task of making the comparison between sabre and court sword without using denigrating language, as it is unlikely the nature in which the statements were made. Still, it is better this translation than none at all. Steve Kincaid mentioned that Dr. Kimm described a characteristic of Korean swordwork preferring a parry/riposte model over a more direct Japanese model. I think he may have been referring to the presentation of the material in the Muyedobot'ongji. The Yedo techniques are presented as being Offensive, and are typically described these days as having no defense. While that is not 100% true, it does get the point across that Yedo is a very aggressive set. The Ssang-su techniques are very much on a defense/offense pattern and so these two sets can be seen in a clear counterpoint from that aspect. Where that comparison can break down a bit is that ssang-su employs a different weapon than yedo. Ssang su is meant for the long sabre (long = huge) while yedo and bonguk are meant to employ the short sabre (short = normal). The long sword is significantly slower than a standard sword. The second area where this comparison may break down is that Bonguk is as aggressive or more aggressive in design than yedo. This is open to some interpretation, however depending on your understanding of the body mechanics involved. Bonguk can be a very forceful method of sword use which employs interrupts and pre-emption in the place of a visible (block then strike) form of defence. If you were to perform Bonguk without using this method, there would be an extreme lack of defensive action. In instruction, I would have to say that my experience reinforces Dr. Kimm's comment. I think there is a definite trend in the thinking here that sets you up to strike down your enemy *after* he has given you something to complain about. This attitude is noticeably in the kendo classes I have taken. FWIW. I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown of combat philosophy across the spectrum of Japanese, Chinese, and Korean sword arts to see if this pattern holds true. ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:06:41 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_A_quick_double-check?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Steve: "......That is the way we (Han Mu Do) practice this form, too. In Mo Eui Won's Mu BI Gi, published in 1621, there are illustrations and directions of 24 sets of Korean traditional sword techniques called Cho Sun Se Bub (Sword Skills of Korea). The illustrations show a long, straight sword......" I just want to make sure we are talking about the same form as I heard the exact same story about BON KUK GUEM BUP and was not aware that CHOSON SE BUP came from or could be found in the same source (Mao's "MA Encyclopedia"). Could you double check that for me? It would be great to know that both forms could be found in the same resouce, even if I am hell- &-gone from ever getting a copy of it for myself. ".....Dr. Kimm tells me that the unique characteristic of Korean sword skill is to block first and then counter attack. Where Japanese swords were designed to kill the opponent first, the Korean swords were designed to defend first, then counter...." I know that the Japanese of the southern Island were heavily involved in the Wa-Ko activities along the coast of China and were much feared for the rather all-out, aggressive style of sword they practiced. I want to say that a surviving style that reflects this tenacity is Jiku-ryu but don't hold me to the spelling. The same subject came up on the SWORD FORUM INTERNATIONAL. I would also agree with Dr. Kimm but bump back to Gen Qi, Ji-guang once again. In his observations of the Wa-Ko tactics he found that absorbing the initial ferocity of the attack and then countering heavily just as the enemy's attack peaked provided the best result. He seems to have borrowed this from Sun Tsu (Art of War) and a few other tacticians. Although I have not been able to find a tradition that directly relates to what the Gen. taught his men, if what I see in the MYTBTJ bears any resemblance at all I would say that is the premise for just about all of the action there. On the other hand, the Wae Guem chapters seem toshow Japanese sword as being a matter of steady hacking and moving forward. The best defense is a good offense, I guess. BTW: Is the GM Kim, Jae Il who structured your form CHOSON SE BUP the same gentleman who also originated a style or organization of the same name? I think I saw an article on him in TKD TIMES a while back. What I got from the article was that his swordwork or art combined Chi Kung, Tai Chi and Kumdo, or are we talking about two different people. (After all there are one helluva lot of "Kim-s in Korea!!) BTW #2 : Thanks for the webzine tip. I'll check it out. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest