Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 06:23:13 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #448 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. How people train (David Ozanne) 2. RE: Re: One more time (Jason E. Thomas (Y!)) 3. Kwan vs. Style (Jason E. Thomas (Y!)) 4. Kicho form (Sheree Goldstein) 5. Concerning Tang Soo Do (Luke Edwards) 6. Welcome TSD folks! (Charles Richards) 7. Gum mu and other things (andrew pratt) 8. Luke on Tang Soo Do...................................... (George Peters) 9. USTU/USOC update (Charles Richards) 10. Mook Jong= Mike Janich's Book (Ken McDonough) 11. Kill Bill= My Man Quentin T (Ken McDonough) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "David Ozanne" To: Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:26:14 +1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] How people train Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello all. I am a 5th kup TKD (W.T.F) person who trains in Brisbane, Australia. I was wondering whether anyone uses (hard) punching bags in their training or exactly what excercises they use to develop wrist strength, as i would like to develop this. P.S. will Haidong Gumdo ever come to Australia - I think it would be appreciated here. Regards, David Ozanne --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Jason E. Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: One more time Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:45:35 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, You make a very good point, but how do we know that the "Trunk" is better? The Heians/Pinans/Pyong-Ahn were created by Funakoshi's teacher Yasutsune Itosu. Some speculate they were taken from Kanku-Dai (Koshunkun); which was brought from China (I believe Koshunkun; being the name of a Chinese ambassador). However, who knows how the current Japanese/Korean/Okinawan version may differ from the original Chinese version. Also, where did the Chinese learn it? Was it created in China or passed on from someone else of another region? The real point to this rant is the question, "How do know when you've really reached the starting point?" You might not believe it from this post, but I'm really a traditionalist, however all of this stuff had to be created, adapted, changed some where or it would have never grown into separate styles. I believe we as martial artists have an obligation to preserve the past and embrace the future. As an example I started studying Shotokan to get closer to the root of TKD I've studied all my life. I am now exploring Hapkido to broaden my horizons and learn new things. Similarly I teach the Kicho Hyungs, Bassai and Chul-Gi as part of my TKD Curriculum along with the Chang-Hon forms (because these forms were taught to me by my original instructor Jim Miller who in turn learned them from Skipper Mullins, who learned them from Allen Steen, who learned them from Jhoon Rhee). If I ever decide to create my own Hyung (I've often considered it); I would name it uniquely and possibly add it to my curriculum. I would not however, replace an older Hyung with it and call it the same name or remove an older form out of my curriculum. Just some thoughts... Regards, Jason E. Thomas Chief Instructor North Austin Tae Kwon Do www.natkd.com > -----Original Message----- > From: bsims@midwesthapkido.com [mailto:bsims@midwesthapkido.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 7:49 PM > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: One more time > > Dear Charles: > > ".....You're right. In terms of forms I would be lying to myself to say > my > hyung sets are anything other than those of Funakoshi Sensei as taught > to Lee Sabomnim and modified by Hwang Sabomnim. Which coincidentally > would make them Japanese adapted derivatives of Okinawan Kenpo. Not > very Korean, neh....." > > I know I probably ask this every time the subject comes up but bear with > me yet one more time. > > If you are reasonably certain that what you are practicing in your Tang > Soo Do curriculum are variations of the Shotokan forms from Japan have you > ever given serious thought to backing up to the Okinawan versions of the > same hyung/kata so as to get a bit closer to the source material? After WW > II quite a few Japanese arts tried to circle back to the Okinawan > traditions and pick-up many of the finer points of combat, or culture, or > intent, or what-have-you knowing that Funakoshi, and his son and Nakayama > had in their turn taken out a good deal of this. I guess if you know that > you are using this material anyhow and have no qualms about it maybe it > would serve you better to get a little closer to the trunk rather than > hang around on the branches. Whatcha think? > > Best Wishes, > > Bruce > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Jason E. Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:05:06 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Kwan vs. Style Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I noticed in one of Mr. Richards posts he mentioned having his own style (Moja Kwan). I've thought of calling my interpretation and teaching methods of TKD as my own Kwan, but I didn't necessarily think of it as my own "style". I'd be interested to get some opinions on what the difference is between a Kwan and a Style, and what defines each? Form example Moo Duk Kwan went the way of Tang Soo Do, Su Bahk Do, and Tae Kwon Do. Even in Tae Kwon Do some MDK practitioners use the Pal-Gwe, Taeguek, Pyong-Ahn or even Chang-Hon forms. The WTF has practitioners from virtually all the Kwans, the ITF is the expression of Oh Do Kwan. Would you consider Chung Do Kwan, Ji Do Kwan, Song Moo Kwan and Yun Moo Kwan as separate Styles? I don't have the answers, but would enjoy exploring the possibilities along with everyone else. Regards, Jason E. Thomas Chief Instructor North Austin Tae Kwon Do www.natkd.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 23:06:36 -0400 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Sheree Goldstein Subject: [The_Dojang] Kicho form Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Interestingly enough, I studied Isshinryu karate for six years (ok, with a LONG break in the middle to have my kids), stopping a little over six years ago. We did the Taikyoko katas. When I started studying (WTF) TKD about a year and a half ago, the first form taught was Kicho Il Bo. Yup, identical to Taikyoko 1 (except that in karate, we turned our head to see over the shoulder that gave us more visibility; in TKD, we turn our head in the direction we're going to move -- both make sense to me). BTW, we then do Palgwe forms up to black belt, then Koryo, then the Taeguks. I think that's a little different than what I generally hear. Sheree Goldstein (former 1st kyu Issinryu karate) (current bodan - black belt candidate WTF TKD, hoping to test in February) --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Luke Edwards" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:04:52 +0930 Subject: [The_Dojang] Concerning Tang Soo Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks for your responses. Bruce, I also appreciate uniformity in the arts, especially with "international" organisations, I was just wondering why it was that we were learning these basic forms so far into our curriculum. Up until now not even beginners were taught these, they were ignored and finally introduced as a basic "exercise" rather than a hyung. It seems as if they are trying to put this into our learning almost subtley (conspiracy paranoia again :s). In reference to Charles' post, it does make sense that they would have universal basic hyungs to teach, but my concern is that it seems counter-productive. Our beginner students have always excelled due to the high standard of teaching and repetition of basics, to simplify already simple forms seems unnecessary and a waste of time. However, I would like to see one international Tang Soo Do organisation instead of many national ones and I suppose this is a step in the right direction. Tang Soo - Luke _________________________________________________________________ Chat via SMS. Simply send 'CHAT' to 1889918. More info at http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilemania/MoChat.asp?blipid=6800 --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:41:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Welcome TSD folks! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Pat Corbett Jr. Pleasant Gap, PA Cho Dan World Tang Soo Do Association <> Dear Pat, Welcome to the digest from another TSD player. Good to see some WTSDA folks lurking on the list. If you are in the state of PA you are in the hub of WTSDA center around KJN Shin, Jae Chul. If you see him at regional events, please give him my warmest respectful regards. BTW, which studio/instructor are you with? Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: andrew pratt To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:14:47 +0900 Subject: [The_Dojang] Gum mu and other things Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net All, Anthony wrote: > Sword dance in Korean martial arts is referred to as "gum mu". There are three types which I have been < Just to be pedantic, the 'mu' mentioned above is not the 'mu' in martial arts but a different Chinese ideograph representing dance. There are a couple of kummu that are traditional dances with 8 women facing each other as in a square dance. They then 'dance' around a central point clashing their short swords / knives together. If I remember correctly, the knives are then placed on the ground and danced around. If anyone has seen Morrisman dancing its like that in slow motion. The dance is very stylised with no reference to real martial sword techniques. >always have young, attractive women in fantasy versions of Korean traditional dress performing a hodge-podge of sword-ish techniques and whirling. Lots of whirling. < Somehow this doesn't surprise me at all. About 3 months ago, one of the drama soaps here, which have only one plot line - boy meets girl - featured the boy following the girl and joining a 'ki' practise class. This was an excellent publicity coup for the group concerned (Kukson-do I think). > As for the use of "bub"... Well, you can't use it by itself to mean anything recognizeable. Hyung and Poomse have a much higher rate of being understood by your average Kim. There is no reason not to use 'hyung' when dealing with swords. It seems to be common enough in Hapkido. I suspect your instructor grew up calling them < Also, curiously, the 'tul' that is often used by ITF does not seem to be common here either. Bruce and Steve were discussing the Wubeichi (to use the Wade-Giles romanisation). Bruce commented: Steve replied: > That is the way we (Han Mu Do) practice this form, too. In Mo Eui Won's Mu BI Gi, published in 1621, there are illustrations and directions of 24 sets of Korean traditional sword techniques called Cho Sun Se Bub (Sword Skills of Korea). The illustrations show a long, straight sword. Dr. Kimm tells me that the unique characteristic of Korean sword skill is to block first and then counter attack. Where Japanese swords were designed to kill the opponent first, the Korean swords were designed to defend first, then counter. The version of this form I currently practice was interpreted by Grand Master (I know how much you hate that term, but he deserves it) Kim, Jae Il. This article has some interesting info http://www.mooto.com/eng/webzine/news_view.asp?news_no=701 < The author was a Ming scholar with delusions of being a great military commander. He spent several years compiling the Wubeichi, which is a massive book and covers everything from empty-handed techniques to building and sieging castles. Like all Chinese and Choson scholars of the time, his book was mostly a compilation of earlier works. The kwonbop techniques came from the Xiao Shinju (which is the basis for the Kwonbop found in the Muye Tobo T'ongji). The purpose of compiling the manual was to help re-invigorate the Ming military so that it could defeat the Ching who were threatening along the northern border. The emperor and courtiers must have seen something in Mo that he himself could not see because they long delayed giving him the posting he craved. He was finally sent to guard a strategic island in the Yalu, his troops mutinied. The point I want to make is that he was not the 'military scientist' suggested by the moto article - he was a scholar who thought he could become a military leader by studying past military manuals. As to Dr. Kimm's argument that Korean techniques predominately defend first and then strike, I am not really qualified to answer. Defending would seem sensible, and can be found in many Japanese (and presumably Chinese) sword techniques and often, at higher levels, the same cut is used for both defence and cut (the basis of iaido) so the question becomes immaterial. I have yet to finish translating the Chosen Sebop but the Kyong Dang interpretation of these techniques that I practise have no particular preference for defence and attack over pure attack. The most interesting point, though, is that the descriptions of techniques were not changed in the Muye Tobo T'ongji even though the sword was changed from straight to curved - two weapons with very different cutting dynamics. Andrew Pratt --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 00:32:32 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Luke on Tang Soo Do...................................... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Luke: Can't say I blame you for being a bit bewildered with the advent of a "new hyung". I must say that I strongly agree with Bruce's views on conformity. Having taught for a while myself, I have had the opportunity to view the far reaching effects of both conformity and non conformity. It would seem that nonconformity is fraught with far more negative effects. Mr. Richards is quite correct in what he had to say about whose followers practice which hyung. I belong to a federation that follows GM Hwang Kee. The gup levels use the Kicho hyungs, Pyung Ahn hyungs, and Pal-che hyungs(old name for basai forms). Also required is a Kee Mah hyung(nahaichi). Other federations use the Chil Sung forms also. WHY these deviations occur is not only due to whom one may follow, but also someone's views as to what may or may not be "traditional". WHERE all the federations come from in a traditional art? Some federations, as Mr. Richards pointed out, have their beginnings with different founders, others have split from their roots in order to either facilitate or inhibit change ie; arguements over what really IS traditional, and there is also the omni-present scramble to prostitute something for the sake of a god-rotting dollar and the ensueing arguement over just whose coffers will hold the wealth. Bruce and I will agree that "politics" also figures in. I suppose the burden is on the student to check the linage of his instuctors to determine just where he fits into the scheme of things. I feel that an instructor should be very frank and open as to their instructors and those before him. For example, one of the first things I was taught was my instructors name, his instructors name, and then back to GM Hwang Kee. At least if an instructor alludes to being "traditional" one might think he would be able to trace back to a traditional founder. Ah well, enough of my ramblings. I hope that everyone has been of some service to you as to determine the HOWS and WHYS. I hope that you will ALWAYS feel free to question any goings on in your org. At the least, perhaps you will gain in knowledge, at the most, perhaps your frank questions will help keep others honest. (Right, Bruce?) Tang Soo!!! George Peters _________________________________________________________________ Surf and talk on the phone at the same time with broadband Internet access. Get high-speed for as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service providers in your area). https://broadband.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 04:58:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] USTU/USOC update Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Cut and paste from another list :-) Message: 1 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 01:43:30 -0700 (PDT) From: B K Subject: State of the USTU/Decertification effect at club level Cherie: <> Not yet. The way I see it is that the USTU will most certainly be decerified, but all that means at club level is that the USOC will temporarily take over the official organization of the NGB while the framework is put in place for the USTU to correct the violations according to the USOC's likings, then it will eventually be re certified as NGB. I wouldn't look for an alternative group to "take over" or become the new NGB for Taekwondo in the US. No matter what happens there will still be sort sort of USTU. At club/local level the status of the NGB will have relatively little to no impact. The higher you move up the more the impact is felt. At a National level for Olympic Team players, it is a huge distraction, but they will still go on to represent the USA in Athens. Individuals from within the sport will be involved with keeping things running. Think of it as a takeover or a merger of a company. The company continues to do business, in this case, there will continue to be local, state, and national level competitions for the customers/members. The changes only effect those that are in charge of running the events. Some executives will be replaced. The majority of employees will stay on board with the newly merged company (IE whatever the USTU morphs into) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 05:19:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken McDonough To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Mook Jong= Mike Janich's Book Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Alain: Yes, I have Mike Janich's Book. Unfortunately, my dreams of a workshop in Oklahoma with woodworking tools, an auto lift, and gym have faded (for the moment) due to my wife's illness and need for me to return to the East for a new position. Hence, I need a pre-made Wood Dummy to enhance my sloppy skills. Cheers, Ken McD... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 06:02:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken McDonough To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Kill Bill= My Man Quentin T Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Martial Arts Fans, Practitioners, and Has-beens: I watched Quentin Terrintino's new movie, Kill Bill, last night with my 15 year old. We both enjoyed this movie. It is the typical Quentin T movie with significant symbolism, humor, and the Pulp Fiction/Reservoir violence genre stuff that makes his movies decidedly different. I think having David Carridine of Kung Fu fame and cameo appearances by the new California governor and Michael Parks was a nice humor twist. Typical Quentin who is a superb analyst of various cult and different movie genre's. I loved the musical selections and laughed when the Sergio Leone movie scoretracks were played. Good stuff. Similar to the Blues Brothers movie, a tribute to blues and soul music, Kill Bill is a tribute or reflection on martial arts movies. If you liked Lee Marvin in The Killers and Point Blank, then you should like Uma Thurman who also reminded me of that strong woman Sigourney Weaver in Aliens. I am also a devoted fan of film noir and hence admire the styling of this movie....reminds me of thrillers that reflect our society... Of course many of you know that I an avid fan of those Private Eye movies and like the writings of Spillane, Raymond Chandler, and Dashiell Hammett. I think Quentin likes those authors also. I even wear my Mike Hammer hat ! In a stroke of brilliant movie making, Quentin throws in animated clips. If you like John Hubley, who worked with Disney and UPA, and made The Hole and the Hat, you will like what Quentin did in this movie. Quentin borrows heavily from action genre movies and B-pictures and the hidden meanings, and buried beauties of which even the directors themselves were not aware. For example, the weird black humor of Robert Aldrich with his ambiguously satirical Mickey Spillane thriller Kiss Me Deadly or the more contemporary Sam Peckinpah who had risen to vogue quickly with the help of those great Westerns , e.g., the Wild Bunch. I loved those great slow motion blood splattering scenes. There is plenty of that in Kill Bill. Loved it and had more popcorn when the limbs and blood were flying. Of course Brian De Palma, Bob Rafelson, and Dennis Hopper join the mix. Cult actors have remained remarkably stable since the early sound days. For example, the films of Boris Karloff and Bela Lugosi. Who can forget Lon Chaney and Junior ? Here in Kill Bill we have Carradine, Parks, Madsen, and even that blonde chick that dated Jackson Browne and was a mermaid. Of course Quentin is a martial arts movie fan and probably loves the Chow Yun Fat movie and its accompanying violence. We know he admired the Bruce Lee Genre and hence the Carradine connection. And, he absolutely liked the high flying antics in those Chinese Martial arts flicks. Crouching Tiger ring a bell ? I love the revenge style movies and this serves up a heaping dose of that. Similar to Mad Max, The Payback, and Enter the Dragon, revenge is the key driving force here. And, yes, Uma's sword was made in Okinawa. As Lucy Liu found out ! Good stuff. Go see it. Ken "Two Thumbs Up" McDee --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest