Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:01:35 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #449 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Hyung or Kata? (Charles Richards) 2. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Korean_Style_Elements?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 3. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Variations?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 4. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Sword_form/dance?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 5. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Wish_Granted?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 6. correction - Korean sword style elements (A. Boyd) 7. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_One_More_Time_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 8. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Unless_you_live_in_Florida....?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 9. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Concerning_TSD?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 10. Out and about (J.R. West) 11. Re: Kwan vs. Style (Denise) 12. Hittin the Heavy Bag and Wrists Development= David O= Part II (Ken McDonough) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 06:22:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hyung or Kata? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> I know I probably ask this every time the subject comes up but bear with me yet one more time. If you are reasonably certain that what you are practicing in your Tang Soo Do curriculum are variations of the Shotokan forms from Japan have you ever given serious thought to backing up to the Okinawan versions of the same hyung/kata so as to get a bit closer to the source material? After WW II quite a few Japanese arts tried to circle back to the Okinawan traditions and pick-up many of the finer points of combat, or culture, or intent, or what-have-you knowing that Funakoshi, and his son and Nakayama had in their turn taken out a good deal of this. I guess if you know that you are using this material anyhow and have no qualms about it maybe it would serve you better to get a little closer to the trunk rather than hang around on the branches. Whatcha think? <> OK Really it all started from Itosu Sensei when he began teaching school age boys Kenpo as a physical conditioning for future induction into the Japanese military. Many of the "weapons were blunted" to keep the young boys from injuring each other. One example is turning the punching fist completely to palm down orientation (crossing the radius and ulna) versus "steering wheel grip" (stacking the radius and ulna in the same plane). This also meant submerging further to the inner dojo the bunkai related to pressure point and joint manipulations. Now add to that the program included a train the trainer approach where grade school teachers got a crash course through shodan and then sent out to spread the art. This lead to a quik growth and in effect the creation of a sub system more focussed on physical development than military fighting applications. Guess who ended up teaching the Koreans that later went on to "develop" Kong Soo Do and Tang Soo Do. You got it, these grade school teachers now renshi and/or their students. Now add to that Funakoshi Sensei is seeing the value to society to taking a Do approach to karate-do versus a sul appraoch. So the founders of Tang Soo Do (and Kong Soo Do) had nothing to learn but a Do based approach to strengthen the mind body and spirit, but not necessarily the sul approach of early te to face an armed attacker and dispatch him efficiently. Long way of explaining that part of what makes TSD TSD is the Do based approach Funakoshi emphasized, and the focus on strengthening versus "violent bunkai." Most TSD/SBD organizations do not include any bunkai as part of the cirriculum.....hmmm. A more Okiknawan te approach would have more compact motions with a smaller more natural stance (great for pressure point work), but the TSD/Shotokan approach features a more atheletic deeper stance that builds leg strength, agility and balance, but makes no sense at all for quick and tight pressure point fighting. So finally, yes I could go back to Matsumura style te, but that would look like say all white gi for gups and the hakama for Dans. We would train in Naihanji I, Kusanku and Jae Nam only, but in all the bunkai for those patterns. That may certainly be the root, but wouldn't be Tang Soo Do, and certainly wouldn't be KMA. So what's a poor fellow to do? For me, I've set out on a quest to learn all the Tang Soo Do patterns, including somehow So Rim Jang Kwan AND TaeKyuk Kwan, while learning the possible bunkai from the early te versions. Call it my own honoring the roots and accepting the evolution. I truely view TSD and KMA as a living art. Yours in jung do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 08:30:45 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Korean_Style_Elements?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Anthony: WHAT A GREAT POST!! I wish I could frame it, so when folks start asking about how Kumdo and Kendo are the same and different I could whip your post out and point to it as a sound starting point! What you shared helped gell some thought for me. 1.) Sword architecture and form execution. It is VERY plain from the text of the MYTBTJ that not all of the forms are executed with the same type of sword. Its pretty obvious with the WOL DO or "cresent sword" (sabre?) as noone could confuse its glaive design. However, the Long Sword is, from the text, plainly intended as a very oversized sabre. I am completing my research on dimensions and have found someone who will actually make a rough mock-up of such a weapon and the entire weapon will be some 50inches (Eng.) long of which 38 in. will be blade. By the standards of the MYTBTJ text this will actually be a SHORT Ssang Soo Do. Records indicate these puppies could be as long as seven feet (Chinese). The YE DO is approximately the size of a Japanese katana and the paired "short swords" are perhaps the length of a longer Japanese wakizashi. The reason I raise all of this is that I continually see folks trying to execute all of the forms with swords of a single type--- unusally the Katana. If you are wondering where this is going, I am considering for myself the importance of performing the right form with the correct weapon. With this as a priority I think I will need to give serious consideration to peforming BON KUK GUEM BUP & CHOSON SE BUP both with a single-handed guem ("a Tai Chi Sword" or jian) rather than continue to train with a two handed version for those particular forms. Comments? 2.) Related to the sword type is also the combat distance. In Hwa Rang Kumdo we parry with the third of the sword closest to the guard, which at first glance would seem to address issues of closing with someone who has a shorter combat distance/ shorter weapon, or uses multiple thrusting techniques. At the recent symposium I found that while I am sure I could pick-up the sort of closer quarters parrying that most of the jian people made use of, counter-cutting was limited to "snap cuts" which are chops or slashes executed predominantly with the wrists. Now, true, I was forcing myself to limit my material so as to get as much out of the experience as possible and not to, say, show the "superiority" of my material over theirs. All the same, we do not train much in the close-quarters work as I find, now, would be important. That would mean more consideration of pommel strikes, snap cuts, and quick transitions from parries to close strikes and thrusts. If I had to draw a parallel with MT Hand I would say I expereinced something like what I would guess a TKD person might if an individual who is good with his hands were to consistently get inside of my legs, right? 3.) I was really interested in what you were saying about HAE DONG KUMDOs' use of grappling with a person when various combinations or armed and unarmed are involved. It was daunting to have my sword arm grabbed and find that my weapon had then become an encumberance. 4.) I also read the article that Steve suggested and found it to be much more informative than the TKD TIMES article on the same person. I think if I had to tease out one priority regarding the sword material--- or KMA in general-- it would be authenticity. I have always thought that the idea of constructing a persons' own formula for using the information taught in the KMA is the responsibility of the individual. However, I wonder if its necessary to organize new formulations of material when we still don't have a solid grasp of everything the original material was about. All the same, I'm with you, Anthony. I was pleasantly surprised to see a recognized sword master own, up front, that he had constructed his material from a few sources, instead of training "in the mountains" for half of his life. :-) 5.) Just a quick thanks for taking time to clear-up the matter of sword terminology. I hope to remain as true to standard usage as possible, though I will be the first to admit that even the Koreans seem to throw themselves curves now and again. Maybe when it comes to terminology the trick is to follow the slowest moving changes rather than the fastest. I just don't want anyone coming back to me at some later date and asking for the umpteenth time "does kwan mean style?". ;-) Finally, I, too, would like to see someone consider combat philosophy as part and parcel of their art. Just as sword design, combat distance, techniques and goals all influence the way the weapon is used, the overall approach to how a sword fits into the Mu-Do scheme is something that doesn't get addressed very often--- as the the MA must somehow absorb it by osmosis rather than direct instruction. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 08:42:08 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Variations?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Cahrles: ".....Just so Bruce can get onto me about modifying the standards. I keep the standing bow, but Uke steps back into an on gaurd posture and then punches......." I can't jump on you TOO hard in this respect. In Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido after two partners bow, both move to a combat or fighting stance with the arms coming up only when the person is ready to attack or accpet the attack. Of course, for Black Belts this is waived as one could reasonably assume that a person of standing would be prepared for an attack from the moment of the bow. We don't do a lot of shouting to signal intent as I have seen in many of the TKD schools. As far as stepping back or stepping forward I have heard arguments both ways. I tend to draw on my swordwork in that one steps forward as the sword is drawn and steps back as the sword is sheathed. GM Myung has adopted some interesting footwork in which a defensive posture tends to resemble something of a modified "cat stance" (neko ashi dachi) from Japanese tradition. I have not seen any other Korean tradition use this approach so I can't speak to how prevalent it is. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 08:45:51 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Sword_form/dance?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Michael: "......"In Kuk Sool, there is a form called Gum Moo Hyung that they also call Sword Dance Form. ......... However there is a straight sword form called Juhng Guhm Hyung and when executed looks as though it could be called a dance. Very flowing and fluid....." Do you know if these sword forms were organized by the Kuk Sool people (read also In Sun Seo/ In Hyuk Suh) themselves, derived from Chinese traditions or originated somewhere in Korean traditions themselves? Any background information would be appreciated. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 08:49:33 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Wish_Granted?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Anthony: Since you asked about sword and combat philosophy you may want to take a look at a VERY interesting and informative discussion among some particularly knowlegeable and experienced sword people on E-BUDO. Its located in the Japanese Sword forum and is titled "Individual vs Paired Practice", I think. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:25:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] correction - Korean sword style elements Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net original entry: ** In instruction, I would have to say that my experience reinforces Dr. Kimm's comment. I think there is a definite trend in the thinking here that sets you up to strike down your enemy *after* he has given you something to complain about. This attitude is noticeably in the kendo classes I have taken. FWIW. ** I intended to write: This attitude is noticeably *absent* in the kendo classes I have taken. FWIW. Sorry for the omission of the important word in that sentence. ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 09:58:07 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_One_More_Time_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jason: ".... However, who knows how the current Japanese/Korean/Okinawan version may differ from the original Chinese version. Also, where did the Chinese learn it? Was it created in China or passed on from someone else of another region? ...." I think you might have taken the idea a bit too far. Of course you are right about the whole idea of tracking traditions back through many generations and across many traditions. What I was asking Charles was if, in practicing kata/hyung that he knew proceeded from Shotokan, if he had considered moving backwards to the same traditions as practiced in Okinawa? There are subtle differences between the Tekki and the Naifanchi, the Passai and Bassai Dai and so forth. There is also considerable more focus on using the same movements both for striking/blocking and for trapping/re-directing that have gotten lost as I look at even the best of the more contemporary authors. Funakoshi Gichin was concerned about selling a comprehensive art to the Japanese Educational system and was not about to teach an art where kids could hurt each other seriously. Ergo: He placed the emphasis on physical culture in much the way that his teacher Itosu did. I was just wondering if Charles had ever consisdered going back before Funakoshi and Itosu to Matsumura, or maybe to examining the material of Kyan to see his (Charles) kata/hyung in a different light. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:15:13 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Unless_you_live_in_Florida....?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jason: "......Would you consider Chung Do Kwan, Ji Do Kwan, Song Moo Kwan and Yun Moo Kwan as separate Styles?...." A "kwan" is a group of people who share a common interest or common goals. For example, during the early years of the Japanese Occupation certain politic groups organized themselves into political discussion "kwans" or political action "kwans". The people in these groups may or may not share the same method for accomplishing their goals, though you can probably expect that they would, right? A "style" seems to be alternate methods for accomplishing a goal, though most of my research has pointed up that consistently this is a matter of teaching or curriculum priorities rather than modifications made to an art to actually make the art more effective. I think what I am trying to say in a very diplomatic way is that a kwan is pretty objective in that you can point at a building or group of people and say "that kwan". However, a style tends to be more subjective such as the various "styles" that were contrived by the Okinawans regarding their arts during the 20th Century. As much as folks make of "styles" today, the fact is that at the turn of the 20th century there was only one Okinawa-Te though different people learned various aspects of it and later taught various spins on what they thought was the most important points. If its any consolation folks here in the States make the same mistake about the concept of Japanese "ryu". FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:28:10 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Concerning_TSD?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Luke: ".....Thanks for your responses. Bruce, I also appreciate uniformity in the arts, especially with "international" organisations, I was just wondering why it was that we were learning these basic forms so far into our curriculum. Up until now not even beginners were taught these, they were ignored and finally introduced as a basic "exercise" rather than a hyung. It seems as if they are trying to put this into our learning almost subtley (conspiracy paranoia again :s). ....." Put your paranoia away...... but not just yet. By that I mean you may be right and you may be wrong at the same time. Consider this. Until the start of the 20th Century, if you went to a teacher in Okinawa to learn TE, he probably started you out on NAIFANCHI kata. There is some controversey over whether there was one or two but most folks are pretty sure that #3 came along later, maybe from Itosu. Now the reason I mention this look where this same K/H is in many Korean curriculums. Prett high up the list, right? Ok, now take a look at the next K/H--- probably Passai or "Bassai Dai", right? Once again, pretty far up the list. Then, KUSHAN- KU which is also pretty far up the list. Itosu is thought to have invented the Pinan kata as well as the NAIFANCHI #3 to make the learning process flow easier for kids in the Okinawan Educational system. His goal was to get the art adopted for the PE aspects of the educational system. Then Funakoshi did the same thing by adding yet more basis kata with the TAIKYOKU forms. Its not that you HAVE to have these forms, but learning the art becomes a series of bite-sized pieces rather than large mouthfuls of information-rich material when one follows this approach. The only downside that I see is that the material often gets ---er---- emasculated when this happens. Later people who want to up the combat effectiveness often try to do it with these later versions instead of concsidering the more combat ready material that preceeded these forms. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "J.R. West" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:38:30 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Out and about Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The Stealth Van will be outbound this evening for Hampstead, MD and points north. I will be teaching an all day HapKiDo seminar at Mr. Joe Borucki's "Global HapKiDo" (master@globalhapkido.com) on Saturday and heading back to Jackson on Saturday Night. The following week the SV will make it's way to Houston for a Saturday seminar at Master Hodder's school (TKDdragon@msn.com) in Seabrook, TX and on Nov. 8th we will be in Ft. Wayne, IN (anthony.new@awnewhapkido.com) . If you get a chance, come by and say hello, and I know that there will be many DD folks out on the mats with us.....Best to all.....JRWest www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Denise" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kwan vs. Style Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 12:26:04 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason E. Thomas (Y!)" > I noticed in one of Mr. Richards posts he mentioned having > his own style (Moja Kwan). I've thought of calling my interpretation > and teaching methods of TKD as my own Kwan, but I didn't necessarily > think of it as my own "style". I'd be interested to get some opinions > on what the difference is between a Kwan and a Style, and what defines > each? Jason, from Grandmaster Hwang Kee's TSD/SBD Moo Duk Kwan Fed., the explanation is: Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do) = the techniques Moo Duk Kwan = the philosophy I've been told that "kwan" means "institute" or "school." I've also heard the techniques referred to as the "art" and the "kwan" referred to as the "style" of that art. ("Style" referring to the underlying philosophy with a definition of "philosophy" being the salient interpretation.) In Hwang Kee's organization the modified definition of "Moo Duk Kwan" is: "a brotherhood and school of stopping inner and outer conflict and developing virtue through Soo Bahk Do training." Moo Duk Kwan is the style (underlying philosophical, not physical approach) and Soo Bahk Do is the collection of techniques used to practice the philosophy. In my experience this is not quite the frame of reference of some who give their own kwan a name. What I've seen is that naming a "kwan" is done more to define their physical approach to whatever art they are teaching. An approach that is based not so much on what one would define as philosophy; but, more on their own interpretation of the techniques based on their knowledge of the history of same coupled with experience and any other number of factors. Making it a style of their art. I think Master Richards' approach to his Moja Kwan incorporates his own philosophical as well as physical approach, retaining at least some of the Moo Duk Kwan philosophy and Jeet Kun Do philosophy. Just one perspective. Hoping this helps- Denise --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 09:38:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken McDonough To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hittin the Heavy Bag and Wrists Development= David O= Part II Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net David O, from the Land Down Under, queried this: Response: Well there are a lotta wrist exercises, some I started quite early--but I gotta keep it clean on this list...know what I mean... Continuation of last message: First, hittin the heavy bag is good, ol school stuff. I have two heavy bags in my gym set-up and a cobra bag. I think it is important to make sure u wrap your hands. Or you ain't gonna be going out with Mary on Saturday night...know what I mean ? Second, another favorite of mine is something I showed Sylvesta Stallone...and the SOB never gave me credit in Rocky I. When I lived in Queens, NY and Philly, I lived near the meat packin plants...I got to know the meat cutters and managers...they would give me the meat that was startin to turn rancid. I had a coupla meat hooks in my apartment (also used them to hang my laundry)...you know the kind used in Texas Chain-saw Massacre--when the hung the bodies..right ! So, you hang the meat up and wrap your hands...then start pounding on the ribs...hit it hard and a lot...use combos...Let me tell ya, hittin those cattle ribs and breakin 'em reminds me of breakin heads down on the Bowery...good stuff...but great for training. Hint: use some towels cause the blood comming out of the cow ribs is bloddy. Or should I saw gory ! But I like Gore. Although I did not like Al Gore ! Then u can use a coupla devices to rotate your wrists and make them strong...Also wrist or fist push ups... Well, gotta run and pick up the hanging cheese...this also is great for pounding... See ya. And put some meat on the barbie for me...Aussie friend !! Big Ken P.S. As a side benefit you can use the pounded meat and cheese for a great dip for your friends at the next party... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest