Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:36:03 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #457 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. TSD Hyungs (Dennis McHenry) 2. Re: Maryland's Eastern Shore (Christopher Spiller) 3. teaching kids (and adults) (David Weller) 4. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_OS_Phil_Porter_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 5. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_TSD_Hyung_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 6. Re: TSD Hyungs (Denise) 7. Re: TSD Hyungs - thanks, Master Mac (Denise) 8. ITF/WTF and Leaving Instructor (Damian Jones) 9. teaching children (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 10. about swords (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 11. Guildford, England TKD Instructors out there? (Gerry Reilly) 12. Re: KSW sword (Michael Whalen) 13. Re: ITF/WTF and Leaving Instructor (Ray Terry) 14. Re: Re: Maryland's Eastern Shore (Ray Terry) 15. Re: TSD Kodanja Hyungs (Bernard Redfield) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:57:55 GMT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Dennis McHenry Subject: [The_Dojang] TSD Hyungs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Charles, "highest forms in the practice of MDK SBD would be Hwa Sun, ..." Again, Master Denise Lee would better answer this question, but I believe (as least in the Mi Guk Kwan) Hwa Sun is taught at 3rd Dan, maybe 4th Dan. The Chil-songs are introduced at the same time as Pyung-ahn Cho-dan, and they usually learn the first 3 before 1st Dan. I believe the Yuk-ro forms begin being taught at 1st Dan. Hope this helps, Mac ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 09:34:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Maryland's Eastern Shore Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Message: 4 > From: "Michael Falba" > To: > Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 06:32:02 -0500 > Subject: [The_Dojang] Maryland's Eastern Shore > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Greetings: > > I am moving to the Eastern Shore of Maryland. > > Does anybody know of a Dojang there? > > Thanks! > > Mike Falba > 1st Dan - Tae Kwon Do - Chayon Ryu Mike, I live in Pittsburgh, however I attended a seminar given by Mr. Carlos Patalinghug last month. He is a 5th dan in Taekwon-Do and a 7th degree black belt in Doce Pares Escrima. The seminar was in Escrima (he's awesome, btw) but the night before we were in the same Taekwon-Do class and I can honestly say Mr. Carlos is one of the best technicians I have ever seen (and a very nice guy, to boot). His school information is: Kick Connection 8120 Ritchie Highway Pasadena, MD 21122 Phone: 410-544-2828 I'm not sure how close you'll be to Pasadena, MD but I hope this info helps. Taekwon, Chris __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:09:21 -0500 From: David Weller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] teaching kids (and adults) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Noufaily, I tried something new last week in the class I teach. It is a mixed class, I had 1 2nd Dan one Danbo and assorted color belts down to white belt. I had the black belts come to the front of the room and sit down facing the class, I asked one black belt for a kicking technique, the other for a hand technique. Then the class did the combination up and down the floor a few times. Then we would repeat. There were some "odd" combinations, but all in all it was interesting and the class enjoyed the new challenge. I called it "Whose kick is it anyway?" after the hilarious Drew Carey show.... My Master has used balloon kicking for keeping the younger students interested. They have to keep the balloon in the air by kicking it. Balloons are cheap, but the fun is priceless. He also does "apple picking" (for young and old alike). Crouch on the floor then leap as high in the air as you can, reaching your hands up like trying to grab an apple out of the top of a tree. Repeat. Good leg exercise and tends to wind us geezers a bit after the umpteenth trip down the floor... have a groovy day, dave weller On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 09:28 AM, gaby noufaily wrote: > Message: 3 > From: "gaby noufaily" > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > I am teaching children classes in taekwondo and I am looking for ways > to > make the children interested,happy attracted to taekwondo and to class, > could you please give me your experience and if you can give me some > exercices.thanks abuelgab --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:04:42 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_OS_Phil_Porter_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Thomas: ".....I know that several people decided not to go based on this alone. I also know O'Sensei Porter promoted a fellow taekwondo practitioner to 4th dahn without examination....." That pretty much clinches it for me, and that includes going down to Florida for the big meet with Oh See Lim. I don't need to spend good money to travel across the continent to watch some guy trade on his name recognition for the reason of selling rank to build an organization. I still have a gripe when I hear about GM Ji doing something like that, but at least he (Ji) carries more currency with me for having instructed GM Myung. To borrow from JR, I don't know Oh See Lim "from Adams' housecat" and I can't say I'm too taken with what role he has played in all the recent KHF chaos. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:31:44 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_TSD_Hyung_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Charles, Mac et al: Remember the TV show "F Troop" and the indian tribe known as the "Hakowwee"? Well if you remember how the indian tribe got its name that how I'm feeling about now--- "Where the heckarewe?" First off, before I go into this any farther may I ask, is GM Kang Uk Lees' book a decent guide to TSD forms. The reason that I ask is that if we decide to pursue further investigation it would help to have a common reference point for forms and their specificity to a rank. I tried Hwang Kees' book (which I borrowed from the library) and had a real disaapointing experience when I saw how he had dealt with TSD history. No problem except that I never had any confidence in how he organized things after that. If anyone has a better recommendation for a common resource we can all use to reference our discussion I am open to suggestions. OK, comes the next point. I am guessing that not all TSD practitioners or organizations share the same curriculum, or do they? Is it a matter of how much a curriculum includes or excludes modern versus older forms? Do mant TSD group do BOTH modern and old hyung and can they be identified organically either by school, organization, or personalities? Next point. I assume that the older forms focus predominantly on Shotokan material yet modified to account for greater amounts of leg techniques. What role do the new or modern hyung organized after the Shotokan material fill? Is it possible that people who practice both forms are being needlessly redundant in their practice? Next point. Have we actually confirmed that the Tae Kuk Kwon hyung is, in fact TCC? If so has it been demonstrated in execution what TCC material or what style or lineage of TCC the form came from? Next point. I'm hearing that people believe that there exists high ranking folks who have actually learned and performed the Shaolin Long Fist (SoRim Chang Kwon) and yet others who think that the form has been lost. Has anyone actually witnessed the performance of the form, seen it on tape, or seen it recorded in the press (either public or private)? Final point. Does anyone have a preference for a particular nomenclature in this discussion? I think that what is contributing to my confusion is the use of multiple terms for referring to the same material. I like to use a common language (say, Korean) and then put the better known term in parentheses behind to help everyone stay on the same page (IE. "Pyong Ahn (Jap. Pinan)"). FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Denise" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] TSD Hyungs Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:54:26 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Mac posted- > I believe (as least in the Mi Guk Kwan) Hwa Sun is taught at 3rd Dan, maybe 4th Dan. . . . The Chil-songs are introduced at the same time as Pyung-ahn Cho-dan, and they usually learn the first 3 before 1st Dan. I believe the Yuk-ro forms begin being taught at 1st Dan. This is right on for the Mi Guk Kwan. As for the past, here's my my experience with the state of the Soo Bahk Do hyungs: The Chil Sung Hyung (3 or 4 of them) were introduced in the very late 70's or early 80's. Chil Sung #5 was introduced in 1987. Chil Sung #6 was introduced after 1995. (This hyung was a major point of discussion in Seoul at the 50th anniversary of the Moo Duk Kwan in Sept. 1995, with many people hoping that it would be introduced there at Kwan Jhang Nim Hwang Kee's clinic. Not so.) Hwa Sun was also introduced around the same time as Chil Sung #6, but we were no longer in the Fed. by the time those were taught. The Yuk Rho's began to be introduced in the late 80's. I learned the first 3 as a green belt. Since I started my training in '86, the Chil Sung hyung have been part of every Gup's curriculum. The attempt was made to introduce more of them earlier in one's training by either the late 80's or early 90's, but that was met with resistance, so the Fed. returned to the previous schedule: 8th Gup learned Chil Sung #2, 4th Gup learned Chil Sung #1 and 2nd Gups learned Chil Sung #3. Cho Dans learned Chil Sung #4 and Ee Dans Chil Sung #5. I was no longer in the Fed. by 1996 when Chil sung #6 was introduced, so I don't know if that Dan progression continued. And I have no idea at what rank Hwa Sun is taught in the Fed. In Grandmaster Charles Ferraro's Mi Guk Kwan, it is taught at Sahm Dan. As for the Yuk Rho's, in the late 80's the attempt was made to introduce (require) them beginning at the 4th Gup rank, with the first 3 being learned before Cho Dan. This was met with great resistance (different discussion, different post) and by - at the latest - 1993, that process was postponed. As for the "Traditional" Tang Soo Do hyung and the progression of requirements, this has also changed. At the present, to my understanding, the Chil Sungs and Yuk Rho's serve as the primary foundation to Soo Bahk Do training at the Gup level. The Gicho Hyungs are still first, Bassai (Dae) and Naihanji Cho Dan are still required (I think), but only 2 (?) Pyong Ahn Hyungs are required as part of the Gup curriculum. Others are optional. Lots and lots of transitioning happening in Kwanjhangnim Hwang Kee's organization in the last 20 years! Life is "tricky" for those who are a part of that process, with quite a few people choosing to hang onto their own practiced course and leave the Fed. My best (last definite date = 1995) listing of the Dan level hyung process: (**The Pyong Ahn hyung were taught and tested in the gup ranks, with a higher level of development required at these Dan levels) 1976 - at least 1995: Cho Dan - Ee Dan = Pyong Ahn Cho Dan, Jin Do, Naihanji Ee Dan Ee Dan - Sahm Dan = Pyong Ahn Ee Dan, Lo Hi, Naihanji Sam Dan Sahm Dan - Sah Dan = Pyong Ahn Sam Dan, Kong Sang Kun, Jit Deh Sah Dan - Oh Dan = Pyong Ahn Sah Dan, Wan Shu, Sei Shan Oh Dan - Yuk Dan = Pyong Ahn Oh Dan, Ji-on, O-Sip-Sa Bo Hyung Yuk Dan - Chil Dan = Woon Shu and So Rim Jang Kwon (At some point in the late 80's, the Chil Sung Hyung were included and there may eventually have been Yuk Rho hyung required here, but I'm sorry that I need to find some other notes to confirm that.) 1991 - at least 1995: Cho Dan - Ee Dan = same + Chil Sung Sah Rho Ee Dan - Sahm Dan = same + Chil Sung Oh Rho Sahm Dan - Sah Dan = same (but, I never learned, saw or even heard of Jit Deh) The rest = the same as above. I hope this might be of help to anyone trying to sort all this out. Take care all- Denise --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Denise" To: Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:57:54 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: TSD Hyungs - thanks, Master Mac Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hitting "send" instead of "spell check" allows messages to leave faster than desired. Ugh. Master Mac- Thanks for your recommendation. I do hope that my experience might be of some help to anyone! > Master Denise Lee would better answer this question, Take care- Denise --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Damian Jones" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:36:12 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] ITF/WTF and Leaving Instructor Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi all, I was just wondering how many people are still with their first instructor? If you are why are you? How many of you have left their first instructor and for what reason? The reason I ask is that I am currently a 2nd Dan and have been training for the past 8 years. I feel that I am not getting out of Taekwondo what I used to and that I have reached a plateau in my current situation. The main reason I can think of being that I am not getting much from my instructor. It is over a year since I graded and have been shown my new pattern only a couple of times and that was by a higher graded student and not my instructor. I don't think that I have been trained by my instructor for the past year. I am also heavily involved in teaching at the club that I train at and we rarely see our instructor whose club it is. I have nothing against teaching the students but feel that I should still be being taught by my instructor. I am considering moving to another club (ITF tae kwon do, I am currently WTF) so that I can start learning again. I would appreciate any advice or experiences from others on the list (re- WTF to ITF or leaving their instructor/club). Thanks Damian _________________________________________________________________ Sign-up for a FREE BT Broadband connection today! http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/btbroadband --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:52:00 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] teaching children Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Teaching children is an art all by itself. I was fortunate enough to spend a great deal of time learning from the late Master Renee West, a leader in this area. But I would recommend a book: "Children and the martial arts, an aikido point of view" by Gaku Homma. Being related to hapkido it is applicable to me, but I would recommend it to anyone teaching children as his point of view and ideas surpass a specific art. There are also many other books out in stores that portray ideas on teaching children, not all of them are about martial arts. Happy hunting... Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:56:33 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] about swords Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I spent several years attending functions of the USJSS and the Houston Tokken Kai before finding the right sword for me. 99% of the members are collectors, only a few practitioners. It took a lot of research, questions and study. Now I am only interested in the old blades, but the years spent one on one with 'those-who-have-more-knowledge' is always worthwhile! Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com <<>> --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:14:46 +0100 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Gerry Reilly Subject: [The_Dojang] Guildford, England TKD Instructors out there? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Message: 1 >Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:08:56 -0700 (PDT) >From: Ellen P >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Guildford, England TKD Instructors out there? >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >We have a student that is moving back to his homeland >(England)....can anyone make a TKD >instructor/school/club recommendation? He is moving >to the Surrey area (specifically Guildford, England) >and would like to continue training - any >recommendations would be greatly appreciated. > >Ellen > Try contacting Master Nam Nyeong Woo, he has a club in the area. Master Nam is an excellent instructor and also very approachable and friendly. I believe his email address is still nyeong@hotmail.com. If you have any problems reaching him, feel free to contact me directly and I will find you a phone number. Gerry Reilly Taekwondo Chungdokwan GB --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Michael Whalen" To: "dojang digest" Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:18:26 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: KSW sword Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, As usual you are thorough in detail and seem to be factual in response (I will, by nature, have to check though). It looks as though I have quite a bit more research to do to confirm my prior statement. You now have planted the proverbial bug up my a.. which , in fact, won't expel itself until I receive mental gratification regardless of the final facts (if indeed the facts can be found). Thanks alot man! Yeah. You and me and probably most of this list. michael "the more I know, the more I realize I don't know s..." whalen KSWnut --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] ITF/WTF and Leaving Instructor To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:29:42 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I was just wondering how many people are still with their first instructor? > If you are why are you? I am still friends with my first Korean instructor. I left him 20 years ago when I moved 2,000 miles across the country. He was going to be teaching at a seminar in San Francisco last weekend and contacted me about getting together. That made me happy. But that seminar was canceled at the last minute so he didn't fly out. That made me unhappy. But it was great that he contacted me after so many years of not being directly under him. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Maryland's Eastern Shore To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I live in Pittsburgh, however I attended a seminar > given by Mr. Carlos Patalinghug last month. He is a > 5th dan in Taekwon-Do and a 7th degree black belt in > Doce Pares Escrima. The seminar was in Escrima (he's > awesome, btw) but the night before we were in the same > Taekwon-Do class and I can honestly say Mr. Carlos is > one of the best technicians I have ever seen (and a > very nice guy, to boot). > > His school information is: > > Kick Connection > 8120 Ritchie Highway Pasadena, MD 21122 > Phone: 410-544-2828 Was Dr. Patalinghug's seminar taught by his relative Cacoy Canete? Gm Cacoy is a good friend and probably the top Eskrimador still living. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:38:39 -0400 From: Bernard Redfield To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: TSD Kodanja Hyungs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello, The Chil Sun forms are introduced at orange belt level, test requirements for orange to green include Chil Sun Ee-Rho, then green to red requirement is Chil sun Ill-Rho, then from second gup red to 1st gup red Chil Sun Sam Rho, 1st to second Dan is Chil Sun Sa Rho, 1st to second Dan is Chil Sun O Rho, the Yuk Rho hyungs are taught at dan level but are not required yest material till Kodanja. Bernard --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. 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