Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 06:09:02 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #458 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Doces Pares seminar (Christopher Spiller) 2. Re: ITF/WTF and Leaving Instructor (tim walker) 3. hapkido in Vegas (bmac2) 4. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_TSD_Hyung_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 5. Still with my teacher... (Eric Walker) 6. Teaching Kids (SEXTONR003@hawaii.rr.com) 7. Re: Maryland eastern shore (Brian Beach) 8. RE: ITF/WTF and Leaving Instructor (Thomas Gordon) 9. RE: Re: OS Phil Porter (Thomas Gordon) 10. RE: ITF/WTF and Leaving Instructor (Michael Shawn) 11. Bruce on TSD hyung...... (George Peters) 12. All Africa Games (Portswood Accounts) 13. Re: Len Losik (Burdick, Dakin R) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 17:45:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Doces Pares seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>Was Dr. Patalinghug's seminar taught by his relative Cacoy Canete? Gm Cacoy is a good friend and probably the top Eskrimador still living. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com<< Ray, Sorry if I was wasn't clear before. Master Patalinghug was the instructor of the seminar I attended. It was hosted by Mr. John Cacioli in CT. The seminar was great. It focused on knife fighting and covered basic strikes, blocks, footwork, some disarms, etc. There was a little stick work thrown in at the end, too. Master Carlos also spoke about the origin of Doces Pares and about Cacoy Canete as well. IIRC, he never lost a fight. Given the speeds that Escrimadors can get their weapons working at this is a phenomenal accomplishment. Taekwon, Chris __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "tim walker" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] ITF/WTF and Leaving Instructor Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:37:22 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My instructor had to leave for 7-10 years, depending on his behavior. Pedophile? Hmph. Mighty big word for a ten year old. Tim NoThere'sNoBitternessHere Walker --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:33:45 -0500 From: "bmac2" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] hapkido in Vegas Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello all DDers, Still in search of Hapkido in Las Vegas. Thanks, Kat Kelly ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:36:52 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_TSD_Hyung_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Denise: ".....I hope this might be of help to anyone trying to sort all this out...." This is a little spooky as I had sent an e-mail to Mac, off-line, asking for exactly the same clarification that you gave in your post. Speaking as one with no TSD background I was beginning to feel the room spin as we proceeded with the discussion. The only thing that you did not address that I would like to hear a comment on is the matter of how the hyung which have been organized later are seen to improve on what the older hyung have taught. By this I mean that folks have heard me comment on the redundance of the Pinan Kata and KUSHAN-KU in the past. I noted that you said that the Pyong Ahn hyung are still taught in conjunction with the newer hyung. This seems to be an extraordinary amount of formwork especially when it results in what have been primary Japanese kata being taught to dan ranks. Let me also say that my question pre-supposes that one believes that each form/kata/hyung introduces additional material for the practitioners' consideration rather than just presenting the same material reshuffled in a different manner. Comments? Anyone? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Eric Walker" To: Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:01:43 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Still with my teacher... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Jones wrote: "Hi all, I was just wondering how many people are still with their first instructor? If you are why are you? How many of you have left their first instructor and for what reason? The reason I ask is that I am currently a 2nd Dan and have been training for the past 8 years. I feel that I am not getting out of Taekwondo what I used to and that I have reached a plateau in my current situation. The main reason I can think of being that I am not getting much from my instructor. It is over a year since I graded and have been shown my new pattern only a couple of times and that was by a higher graded student and not my instructor. I don't think that I have been trained by my instructor for the past year. I am also heavily involved in teaching at the club that I train at and we rarely see our instructor whose club it is. I have nothing against teaching the students but feel that I should still be being taught by my instructor. I am considering moving to another club (ITF tae kwon do, I am currently WTF) so that I can start learning again. I would appreciate any advice or experiences from others on the list (re- WTF to ITF or leaving their instructor/club). Thanks Damian" Hi, I'm still training with my first instructor. I began my training with him 22 years ago. I was a child then, and took a long break from the age of 15 until I was 29 or so. I'm now 35, started over at white belt, and am standing in the edge of 1st dan. I have been back now for close to seven years. The reason I'm still training with Master Toth, is that he is an excellent martial artist that has an awful lot to teach me. We are a hapkido class, and as I understand it, hapkido generally requires more time in rank than other arts such as taekwondo. I'm the senior student in our class at the moment, and find myself instructing the class often, also. Again as I understand the time in rank situation, and I know we are a bit on the traditional side of things, but time between 1st and 2nd dan should be at least one year perhaps as much as three or more. This may depend on factors like your abilities, attitude, internalization of technique and the like. Also, I find that by teaching others my understanding of technique from basic movement to more complex self defense becomes better, or clearer. Master Toth has a lot of experience in the martial arts from the 60's to the present and several different styles. He has decided to master hapkido, in which he has a 6th dan that is hard earned and has spent many years in acquiring. I don't know anything at all about your situation, but I would question myself if I was in your shoes, and the question would be "What is it I think I should be learning right now?" Often the path my not be clearly laid out for you by you teacher, and there may be something that he wants you to get better at, or some shortcoming that he wants you to overcome before you advance. I don't know how old you are, so that may also be a factor. Do you practice a traditional form of TKD or a sport style? Has your 8 years been from age 8 to 16? If so he may want you to become a little older, and perhaps more mature. Patience is a large part of becoming a better martial artist and so also a better and more well rounded person. Maybe this is what your teacher wants. Eight years can seem like an awful long time, but as I get older, it seems shorter and shorter. I don't have the experience that many on this BB have but my suggestion would be to look inward. Ask yourself what it is that you seek, and the answer will be there for you. It may not be the one that you expect to find, but truth lies within us all. We only have to be willing to look it in the eye...I hope that you don't take offence at anything that I've said here, good luck. Eric --__--__-- Message: 6 From: To: Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:24:02 -1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Teaching Kids Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> This is always fun for me: Line them up like bowling pins and have the parents try to knock them down with bowling balls. Randall Sexton www.SextonsHapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 22:23:59 -0400 From: Brian Beach To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Maryland eastern shore Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Maryland eastern shore is a big area - your best bet is to look in Annapolis (technically not E.S.) but you'll have to do the $2.50 bay bridge trip. If you do decide to take classes there look into the EZpass commuter program to save you some $. You can buy it at the bridge. There is a hapkido studio I know of there (Annapolis) Rim's Hapkido. (www.rimshapkido.com) I've never taken a class there, but the instructor was featured in Marc Tedeschi's book and they have a satellite program in Stevensville, MD. As for TKD I'm pretty clueless. I thought you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting a TKD dojang. :) (kidding kidding) If you are willing to make the trek to the DC or Baltimore areas (at least an hour) there is a plethora of top notch martial arts instructors. Pasadena,MD kind of qualifies as part of that area. Enjoy the crabs and the rockfish (striped bass to the rest of the world). Brian --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] ITF/WTF and Leaving Instructor Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 22:05:21 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "How many of you have left their first instructor and for what reason?" Mr. Jones, My original instructor did me much the same way. He was an excellent instructor all the way through the color belts and 1st degree. I went through all the ranks under him and worked my way to ranking black belt. I was working my full time job and teaching several classes a week for him. Then I found out that a lower ranked black belt was getting paid to teach! Man, I was hot. We had a heart to heart and overcame that but he still refused to train his black belt instructors leaving it for me. I knew I wasn't qualified to teach every class - once in a while...sure. But I only outranked some of those people by 5-6 months and we were supposed to be learning advanced techniques. I was watching tapes and even started training with a 10th dan in Ju-Jitsu about 45-60 minutes away just so I would have material for the advanced black belt class. My taekwondo instructor actually got mad that I was training in another system even though I went way out of my way to make sure it wouldn't reflect on him. As if I had a choice! A hungry man needs to eat... Now I look back and realize he didn't teach me because he had nothing else to offer. I put up with all of that but finally called it quits after he started having an affair with a married student. I live in this community, I was raised here, my parents were raised here, and their parents, and so on for many generations. I don't want to be associated with a blatant adulterer that is supposed to be a role model for children. I asked him to quit but he wouldn't. So I left. He divorced his wife and his new found Jezebel divorced her husband. About a year later he was divorced again, bankrupt, son in a lot of legal trouble, lost his martial art school (biggest in town), and moving half way across the country to be with his mom. In about two weeks I open our martial art school....in his old location. 8 years later and I'm back with two of his former students/instructors and one of my own. In regards to your situation, I would sit down with your instructor. Invite him to lunch and go over your desires and how you need training. If he doesn't pick up on it, then I would leave on the best terms possible. A two week notice just as you were quitting a job. As hard as it'll be, I wouldn't tell any of the students where you were going. They'll find out soon enough and it'll take his thunder from badmouthing you. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: OS Phil Porter Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 22:05:15 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Sims, I am also cautious of anyone that holds multiple high degrees in completely separate arts/styles. A 5th degree in Ju-Jitsu and a 2nd degree in Judo...sure. 10th degree in Kung Fu, Taekwondo, and Judo...I doubt it! Well, unless they're 150 years old.... :o)~ Thomas Gordon Florida -----Original Message----- From: bsims@midwesthapkido.com [mailto:bsims@midwesthapkido.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 1:05 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: OS Phil Porter Dear Thomas: ".....I know that several people decided not to go based on this alone. I also know O'Sensei Porter promoted a fellow taekwondo practitioner to 4th dahn without examination....." That pretty much clinches it for me, and that includes going down to Florida for the big meet with Oh See Lim. I don't need to spend good money to travel across the continent to watch some guy trade on his name recognition for the reason of selling rank to build an organization. I still have a gripe when I hear about GM Ji doing something like that, but at least he (Ji) carries more currency with me for having instructed GM Myung. To borrow from JR, I don't know Oh See Lim "from Adams' housecat" and I can't say I'm too taken with what role he has played in all the recent KHF chaos. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Michael Shawn" To: Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 23:00:05 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: ITF/WTF and Leaving Instructor Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Damian, I fully understand what you are going through, I too am a 2nd Dan WTF instructor, been teaching for 3 years. Something that I had to remember was that in WTF TKD, there are only a couple dozen or so techniques in the whole system, that's it. After we reach BB we go and perfect those techniques till we can do them perfectly and accurately without thinking about them. I agree that you should have guidance from your Master instructor as he/she can "fine tune" you. I got caught up in the "all teaching - no training" rut as well. I finally met with the Master and told him what I felt, he agreed to make sure that he taught at least one day a week when I normally take class. I had to go seek it, you might try that if you haven't already, if that doesn't work you might go ahead and look into another branch of TKD or any other martial art. You can't go wrong there. MS --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 02:37:04 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce on TSD hyung...... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, You are quite correct in surmissing that all org do not use the same forms. There are even subtle differences in how the forms are executed. Whether these differences are due to Japanese influences or the mists of time clouding the memories of aging masters I cannot say. GM Kang Uk Lee's book is very nice, however my seniors tell me that the rank chart and "who studied where" is somewhat askew. Since I know what the differences in the forms are, I have my copy annotated and use it as a carry reference as the inexspensive paperback is so much easier and less worriesome than a large book such as Traditional Tang Soo Do by GM C.S. Kim, and a heck of a lot cheaper than Soo Bahk Do ( Tang Soo Do) by Hwang Kee. Prior to the publishing Of Traditional Tang Soo Do, our org used the book by Hwang Kee, or at least there was always a copy in the dojang. Our org does not use the Chil Sung hyungs. My seniors said that they used to practice them, but no longer. I believe that the differences arise from what masters view as traditional or nontraditional, and also the criterea for being able to create a form. The Chil Sung were created by Hwang Kee, and I wonder if this makes them "nontraditional"? Also, at the last instructor's seminar, we were told by our org vice president that the only person who can make up a form is a person who has successfully employed said set of movements while engaged in mortal combat. I am not knowledgeable enough to say what is right or wrong regarding this, I only know what IS or ISN'T. Anyway, food for thought or perhaps fodder for the cannon? You ask for preferences on nomenclature. My org employs only Korean in the dojang. If anyone uses Japanese, I normally have to go look it up. By the way, is the Japanese pianan and the Korean Pyung Ahn the same in meaning. I have been taught that Pyung Ahn is a state that all TSD pcactictioners should always strive for.(safe, calm, comfortable,well- balanced, peaceful, confident) Respectfully, George Peters _________________________________________________________________ See when your friends are online with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:45:10 +0200 (South Africa Standard Time) From: "Portswood Accounts" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] All Africa Games Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am proud to say that a girl from my club took silver (TKD)!!=0D =0D GO South Africa!!!=0D =0D Celeste,=0D =0D Cape Town, South Africa [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of IMSTP.gif] --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 08:22:05 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Len Losik Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray mentioned the errors in Len's articles. I remember his first book ad in Black Belt. The cover had pseudo-hangul on it, by which I mean hangul that was completely wrong. Since his books are expensive to boot, I would suggest you go with either Hwang Kee's stuff or Kang Duk Lee's. I reviewed Lee's and it really is simply a modernization of Hwang's manual, but Lee did keep his book affordable. Buy that one first!! Do you have Hwang's little blue book on MDK history? That one is worth every penny! Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest