Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 11:45:05 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #459 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. O'Sensei title (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 2. TSD patterns (Charles Richards) 3. Re: TSD patterns (Ray Terry) 4. SBD requirements (Charles Richards) 5. Re: leaving your instructor (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_KMA_Instructors_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. teaching kids (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 8. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Hyung_Terminology_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 9. Re: Re: TSD Hyung (Denise) 10. King-sized papers (Ray Terry) 11. South Koreans trimming their tongues (lcanuck) 12. First Instructor (Stephen Petermann) 13. Hapkido Seminar in the Midwest (Hapkido Self Defense Center) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:13:11 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] O'Sensei title Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From a 15 year Japanese MA... Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com It is a term used to reference the founder of an art or sometimes watered down to the current head of a ryu (typically, this is the term "Doshu") if the person is of exceptional ability. It can/has been used for living persons. Morihei Ueshiba got the term from Sokaku Takeda. But they were clearly both exceptional. It is an archaic term (idiomatically translated as "Great and Revered Teacher"). I think the term could be applied to Kano (but there are those who might argue about Funakoshi, being Okinawan and not samurai class - class maters to the Japanese). I don't know Tesshu's history other than he was a sword master, but he may fit as well. It's just Japanese. Everyone in Japan calls their headquarters "Hombu Dojo" - it just means "Home Dojo". So some people in the Ki-society don't call our Tokyo HQ "Hombu Dojo". --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 08:12:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] TSD patterns Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> First off, before I go into this any farther may I ask, is GM Kang Uk Lees' book a decent guide to TSD forms. The reason that I ask is that if we decide to pursue further investigation it would help to have a common reference point for forms and their specificity to a rank. I tried Hwang Kees' book (which I borrowed from the library) and had a real disaapointing experience when I saw how he had dealt with TSD history. <> Kang Uk Lee's book is what I reccomend to my gups, in my copy I have pencil notes in the margin that note how I did it in WTSDA (Shin, J.C.) up through 1998/99, how it is in Kyohan (Funakoshi), and how I actually do it, if different, in general he is very close to WTSDA and the way I do things. What I do looks very much like WTSDA. Because of ankle and knee instability at times a do a flat front foot back stance in liue of the wide cat that WTSDA uses, and I start my knife hands more like Richard Chun and Nakayama's books than WTSDA, but other than that my forms are how Shin would have taught them in 1999. Master Mac does do Rho Hai different from WTSDA and I have adapted to that version, which is I believe how Jae Jhoon Kim would teach it to you. I know my naihanji 2&3 do not match GM Lee, KU's book. But in general it is a good standard especially for under $20. The last search I did on Hwang Kee's book was between $195 and $295. Be hard to hide that one from the wife, neh. Master Mac does consider that as the "answer to discrepancies." In defense of the history, which is probably the same as most KMA school history, his History of MDK book which I believe Master Lee owns, apparently gives a more candid recal of his history and evolution of SBD MDK. <> No problem except that I never had any confidence in how he organized things after that. If anyone has a better recommendation for a common resource we can all use to reference our discussion I am open to suggestions. <> I'd say for an e discussion Kang's $20 book is the best start. <> OK, comes the next point. I am guessing that not all TSD practitioners or organizations share the same curriculum, or do they? Is it a matter of how much a curriculum includes or excludes modern versus older forms? Do mant TSD group do BOTH modern and old hyung and can they be identified organically either by school, organization, or personalities? <> Sharing and paraphrasing from a private thread with Master Lee, ...One's TSD is most accurately defined by when they or their Master left Hwang Kee's organization, or when their Master's Master left the MDK.... <> Next point. I assume that the older forms focus predominantly on Shotokan material yet modified to account for greater amounts of leg techniques. What role do the new or modern hyung organized after the Shotokan material fill? Is it possible that people who practice both forms are being needlessly redundant in their practice? <> The "new" WTSDA forms IMHO insert basic kicks in the beginner forms to I guess add practice of basic kicks, or make them more exciting. Since Funakoshi added the Taikyukyu (sp) patterns to Funakoshi-ha Sho Rin Ryu Kenpo, who's to say if it is traditional TSD to do these patterns or not? The "new" Chilsung and Yuk Rho (1987-1990) I think include more "soft-style" motion so IMVHO I wouldn't think it duplicates or creates a redundancy. For you historians Shin formed the WTSDA in 1982 so that explains why we (oops they) don't do the Chil Sung and Yuk Rho sets. Now the modification to include legs also varies more with kwan than time. In my/WTSDA version of SipSoo (Jutte) the three steps with the hands held in "mountain block" are inside Crescent kicks. I believe in Mac's/JJK's version ala Sho Rin Ryu Kenpo it is done without the kick. <> Next point. Have we actually confirmed that the Tae Kuk Kwon hyung is, in fact TCC? If so has it been demonstrated in execution what TCC material or what style or lineage of TCC the form came from? <> Haven't seen it yet can't say. Leaving that Q for Master Mac... <> Next point. I'm hearing that people believe that there exists high ranking folks who have actually learned and performed the Shaolin Long Fist (SoRim Chang Kwon) and yet others who think that the form has been lost. Has anyone actually witnessed the performance of the form, seen it on tape, or seen it recorded in the press (either public or private)? <> Bruce, I have never seen it, and do not know of any vidoe tapes that exist. I do still have my WTSDA Dan Manual and it and KKW are listed as 7th and 8th Dan written requirements, so one could infer that Shin, J.C. knows both of these patterns or did when he (presided over) wrote the bylaws/Dan requirements. I have met all the 6th and 7th Dans in the WTSDA so one would assume SRJK is what Shin covers for them at the annual Master's clinic, but I have never been to this event, and even if I had stayed long enough to go, I would have gone as a candidate the first two years and then a lowly junior master after that so I doubt "my group" would have covered SRJK. Now I will say Shin seems to adopt all the Masters as his students and begins sharing all the kodanja forms up through Oh Sip Sa Bo both during Master's Clinic, and I have seen most of the upper Kodanja hyung performed as master's demos during the world championships, so by default it appears he is OK with sharing say Jion with a new 4th Dan. One might also assume that if it is so rare to find folks that actually know this form, it may generate some feeling of need to protect it for the few that know it. I'm not ready to go on an e-list and start naming names of folks that are supposed to know it for the dan level they hold, I can only say I've never seen it, and never heard of anyone discussing performing or learning it. <> Final point. Does anyone have a preference for a particular nomenclature in this discussion? I think that what is contributing to my confusion is the use of multiple terms for referring to the same material. I like to use a common language (say, Korean) and then put the better known term in parentheses behind to help everyone stay on the same page (IE. "Pyong Ahn (Jap. Pinan)"). FWIW. <> I'm fine with romanized Korean my spelling comes out like Pyung Ahn (Heian) Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] TSD patterns To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 08:30:30 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > naihanji 2&3 do not match GM Lee, KU's book. But in general it is a > good standard especially for under $20. The last search I did on Hwang > Kee's book was between $195 and $295. Be hard to hide that one from > the wife, neh. Try looking on eBay every now and then or set up an eBay search that will send you email. I've seen volume 1 go for ~$80, as I recall. I have new and old printings of volume 1, volume 2, as well as the little Blue Book. As Dakin mentions (where you been Big D?), the little blue book is HIGHLY recommended to all MDKers. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 08:36:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] SBD requirements Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> At the present, to my understanding, the Chil Sungs and Yuk Rho's serve as the primary foundation to Soo Bahk Do training at the Gup level. The Gicho Hyungs are still first, Bassai (Dae) and Naihanji Cho Dan are still required (I think), but only 2 (?) Pyong Ahn Hyungs are required as part of the Gup curriculum. Others are optional. Lots and lots of transitioning happening in Kwanjhangnim Hwang Kee's organization in the last 20 years! Life is "tricky" for those who are a part of that process, with quite a few people choosing to hang onto their own practiced course and leave the Fed. <> Only 2 Pyung Ahns and a shift to "created sets", hmmm.... Is this a selection of tools from the same box ala Chonji & Palgwe, I think not, but more of a "here's the eveolution of the intent of my art" ala Han Mu Do....Comments, Bruce, Mac, M. Lee Then it seems like he wanted to "shove" his new toys (Yuk Rho) down his loyal seniors throats, just when they got really good at the pyung Ahns. I can see some arguing that 20 hyung for first dan is way too much material and others feeling rooted to the way they learned things (Pyung Ahns). I'd guess he also "deleted" the PA's to make room for the CS and further the USP (Unique selling position) of SBD MDK distancing it from Tang Su Do...comments? Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:06:46 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: leaving your instructor Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net hi there, i left my first instructor due to his love of money which took some rather unethical routes to the students' pocketbooks. heck, he'd even ask you to pay for something mail ordered for him on your credit card, stating he'd pay you back and then have your credit card number from the receipt the seller sent with the item...lol. fortunately, i didnt fall prey to that one, but several folks did. still, he got my money in other new and interesting ways. he rarely taught either. he was rather skilled, but chose to sit in his office, smoke, and talk to his buddies on the phone....or nap. great role model...lol. i studied on my own for a bit, then went with one of his instructors who left him for the same reasons and then some. he has provided training not just in tkd, but other arts as well as more meditative stuff. i also train under a second master who is older and has a variety of experiences, not just the tournament and dojang circuit. he has great insights into the historical and political aspects of tkd as well. together, they provide excellent instruction and mentorship for me and i'm proud to be their student. what's nice is that both know about one another and have no problems with me learning things from both of them. knowledge is power and they know this and encourage learning and teaching. good luck in figuring out your future :) take care, mel Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:01:00 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_KMA_Instructors_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Thomas, Damian, Eric et al: More than anything else I want to express my heartfelt condolences on the experiences you have had with crappy instructors. I don't know what to say. Everytime I have brought up the matter of certifying or licensing instructors, background checks and so forth few folks want to have anything to do with it. The position always seems to be that the market will shake these rats from their holes. The problem as I see it, though, is how much damage will these cretins do before they move on to selling spray-on driveway coatings or used cars? If you are wondering why I am hitting this particularly hard, I recently read a post on a discussion Net where the poster disparaged school certs as being worthless, or at least undesireable. Apparently the only thing that counts in this guys' mind is one of those king-sized papers from a well-known organization. I was all set to lay out a big defense of school certs, but stories like yours always leave me pause for thought. As I see it, the fundamental flaw in the system is that individuals such as you all are talking about simply viewed the KMA as something that they could "use" or "draw from" or "take away from". Anybody who have been in the military knows that when it comes to doing something the focus is always on what you can pitch-in not what you can take away. I have always been suspicious of 1st and 2nd Dans who can't wait to open a school of their own for this very reason. How are they going to help people to grow when they are still dealing with their own growth themselves? As was said in one of the posts, what is a Second dan gonna teach anyone if he has not continued to research, learn and test under someone yet more experienced? But before I close, I do want to say that at least some of the blame needs to go to those teachers of the bozo-s you are talking about. It was up to those teachers to help the individuals you are describing to identify and face down their character flaws and become the sorts of individuals who would serve proudly as teachers. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:11:32 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] teaching kids Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Return-path: From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Full-name: ChunjiDo Message-ID: <12d.3316834a.2cc81422@aol.com> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:10:58 EDT Subject: Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #458 - 13 msgs To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6021 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 0.98e X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain "<> This is always fun for me: Line them up like bowling pins and have the parents try to knock them down with bowling balls. Randall Sexton www.SextonsHapkido.com" wow, randall! havent tried that one yet. lol...boy there are some nights....lol. better go meditate, man...youre worrying me ;) take care, mel Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:07:48 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Hyung_Terminology_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear George: ".....You ask for preferences on nomenclature. My org employs only Korean in the dojang. If anyone uses Japanese, I normally have to go look it up. By the way, is the Japanese pianan and the Korean Pyung Ahn the same in meaning. I have been taught that Pyung Ahn is a state that all TSD pcactictioners should always strive for.(safe, calm, comfortable,well- balanced, peaceful, confident)....." As far as I know the concept of "peace" is the same in both terms. The problem seems to be that in naming things thematically, the Orientals leave a lot of room open for interpretation. The Japanese form Bassai Dai (Okin. "Passai") has been interpreted as "storming the fortress" as well as "overcoming disadvantage". Personally I like the latter, but thats not to say that the former is at all wrong. It seems like many things in the MA are named thematically but that can cause problems when folks from another culture try to interpret what is not familiar to them. In my own school I limit the language to English though I teach concepts using occasional Korean terms so that the students are familiar with them should they go somewhere else. There are however, things in the KMA for which I have been able to find terms in Japanese and English only and that gets to be a bit of a pain. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Denise" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: TSD Hyung Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:42:00 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce- > The only thing that you did not address > that I would like to hear a comment on is the matter of how the hyung > which have been organized later are seen to improve on what the older > hyung have taught. The newer hyungs teach a different approach to movement and breathing with different applications -- Resulting in a Soo Bahk Do student who is somewhat "different" from the traditional Tang Soo Do student. > By this I mean that folks have heard me comment on the > redundance of the Pinan Kata and KUSHAN-KU in the past. I noted that you > said that the Pyong Ahn hyung are still taught in conjunction with the > newer hyung. This seems to be an extraordinary amount of formwork > especially when it results in what have been primary Japanese kata being > taught to dan ranks. Yes, you are right. The transition period from Tang Soo Do to Soo Bahk Do was long (probably longer than desired by KJN Hwang Kee) and difficult (for those with lots of experienced years invested in theirs and their students' paths). Many left. Many stayed. But, it was KJN Hwang Kee's art, right? TSD/SBDMDK folks can take it or leave it. But don't begrudge it, just make one's own way if it doesn't work. 'Nuff said. Again, I hope this helps- Denise --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] King-sized papers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > If you are wondering why I am hitting this particularly hard, I recently > read a post on a discussion Net where the poster disparaged school certs > as being worthless, or at least undesireable. Apparently the only thing > that counts in this guys' mind is one of those king-sized papers from a > well-known organization. I was all set to lay out a big defense of school > certs, but stories like yours always leave me pause for thought. Of course one problem with the king-sized papers from well-known orgs is knowing if they are valid certs or not. We know of several examples where people paid for and received king-sized Korean paper only to find that it really came from Florida, and was completely and totally bogus... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 14:53:11 -0400 (EDT) From: lcanuck To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] South Koreans trimming their tongues Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Those who have a short frenulum (a strap of tissue linking the tongue to the floor of the mouth) can face problems pronouncing some characters due to a disturbance in lateral movements of the tongue, said Bae Jung-ho" We call it tongue-tied. My daughter, without a drop of Asian blood in her, had the same problem; it runs in my family on my mother’s side. At her six-week check-up, I asked her pediatrician to recommend a surgeon. He went to the supply cabinet, took out a pair of sterilized scissors and cut the frenulum. She had no after-effects except the ability to speak clearly and clean her back teeth with her tongue like the rest of us. However, I realize that the e-mail dealt more with intent (my child must speak perfect English) than with the act itself. Lois Knorr --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Stephen Petermann" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:00:05 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] First Instructor Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I had a few MA teachers before my Instructor and I found each other. GM Chong S. Kim's dedication to the art, and his students made him as different from the others. It took a few years for me to understand that all Masters are human. That one truth has helped me make it through the tough times. I have been with him 30+ years. Steve >I was just wondering how many people are still with their first instructor? If you are why are you?< _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy MSN 8 patented spam control and more with MSN 8 Dial-up Internet Service. Try it FREE for one month! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:37:48 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Seminar in the Midwest Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just a reminder for those living in the Midwest of the USA. The pre-registration deadline for the Fort Wayne Hapkido Workshop is only a few days away. If you had not had a chance to study under one of the living legends in hapkido, now is your chance. If you have any questions, just let me know... Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com Info: http://www.awnewhapkido.com/Seminar/J_R_West_Seminar_RegPage.htm --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest