Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:34:04 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #461 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Bruce.......... (George Peters) 2. Re: Oh Se Lim & KHF in Florida (ABurrese@aol.com) 3. Re: Alphabet Soup (Denise) 4. TSD/SBD/MDK jambalia (Charles Richards) 5. Re: worthless certs (Ali Alnasser) 6. USTU DECERTIFICATION UPDATE (fwd) (Ray Terry) 7. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_TSD_Hyung_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 8. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_First_Hand_Experience?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 9. ITF/WTF and Leaving Instructor (Johnjfitzg@aol.com) 10. Re: Re: Oh Se Lim & KHF in Florida (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 01:38:27 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce.......... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir: Thank you so much for your kindness and your time for your input on my question. You mentioned Bassai forms and I have something interesting to note on this. When I was studying for my chodan test, I was taught that the bassai forms were formerly called Pal Che, created in south China in the late 16th century. When Choong Jae Nim Chun Sik Kim came out with Traditional Tang Soo Do, he called these forms Pal Che So and Pal Che Dae. This is what the Inernational Tang Soo Do Federation now refers to these forms as. Also we learned the name Naihanji (cho, ee, and sam dan) Now they are refered to as Kee Mah hyung as GM C.S. Kim says that these names are more traditional(older) Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ Surf and talk on the phone at the same time with broadband Internet access. Get high-speed for as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service providers in your area). https://broadband.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 08:08:46 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Oh Se Lim & KHF in Florida Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jeff, I'm interested in hearing about the weekend as well. While GM Oh Se-lim's signature is on my dan certificates, I have never trained with him. For a number of reasons, I can't make it to Florida, but would like to hear how it goes. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Denise" To: Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:09:42 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Alphabet Soup Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce- Your comments: > Looks like I made another mistake. I was thinking that we were talking about a single art --- TSD--- of which MDK, SBD and TSD were variations. Reading your last post I got the impression that these are almost separate arts if by politics if nothing else. If we are talking about separate disciplines then it would make sense that I was becoming a bit confused. Could be because we are mixing apples (one discipline) with oranges (a completely different discipline)? I know I was getting confused because I seemed to hear all three disciplines invoke a relationship of one sort or another with Hwang Kee. Thoughts? Bruce- This is a complicated political and emotional issue for many (most?) folks involved with TSD, TKD, SBD -- and MDK. You will find nearly as many explanations (shadings) on what this means as there are practitioners practicing any one of these variations -- especially once you introduce the "MDK" letters. The discussion then can become even more heated. But (IMHO), irrefutably, KJN Hwang Kee changed the techniques that were once taught to those in his organization, making "his" current art -- SBDMDK -- different from what it once was when it was TSDMDK. Is this so different from the many different ways that other KMA (or other arts with a "national" origin for that matter) are "divided?" Best- Denise --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 07:47:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] TSD/SBD/MDK jambalia Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Looks like I made another mistake. I was thinking that we were talking about a single art --- TSD--- of which MDK, SBD and TSD were variations. Reading your last post I got the impression that these are almost separate arts if by politics if nothing else. If we are talking about separate disciplines then it would make sense that I was becoming a bit confused. Could be because we are mixing apples (one discipline) with oranges (a completely different discipline)? I know I was getting confused because I seemed to hear all three disciplines invoke a relationship of one sort or another with Hwang Kee. Thoughts? ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce and others, These are my definitions, but maybe they help Moo Duk Kwan = The Kwan founded by Hwang Kee in 1945 that originally taught his art Hwa Soo Do, later taught (Korean Karate) Tang Soo Do and evoled into teaching Hwang Kee's Soo Bak Do Tang Soo Do = Korean Karate, the art taught by Lee, Won Kyuk who founded the Chung Do Kwan in 1944. Charles' further interpretation is folks that practice the Shorin Ryu Kenpo sets as adapted by Lee Won Kyuk or Hwang Kee Soo Bak Do = The name of the art trademarked and taught by Hwang Kee and his downline. Charles' further interpretation folks in the "downline" of the federation after it changed the name to SBD that practice some/all of the Chil Sung and Yuk Rho sets that Hwang Kee created Moo Duk Kwan (X-Kwan) Taekwondo = people (or downline) who used to be members of Hwang Kee's Moo Duk Kwan that did (and may still) practice the Hwang Kee versions of the Sho Rin Ryu Kenpo sets and joined either and/or the KTA at inception or the WTF and now practice (at leaast for WTF/USTU competition) the Taekyuk sets. Charles' furhter clarifications Moo Duk Kwan sets = no such thing see below Tang Soo Do sets = Sho Rin Ryu sets as modified by Lee or Hwang; Kicho, Pyung Ahn, Naihanji and the various udanja Hyung Soo Bak Do sets = Chil Sung and Yuk Rho plus Hwa Sun Soo Bak Do player do some(all) Tang Soo Do Hyung Tang Soo Do players do only the Tang Soo Do Hyung and not the SBD sets MDK TKD has roots in the MDKTSD but may or may not do any TSD sets. These are just my logic, but maybe it helps Bruce? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Ali Alnasser" To: Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 00:44:32 +0900 (KST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: worthless certs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net mel: <<"If you are wondering why I am hitting this particularly hard, I recently read a post on a discussion Net where the poster disparaged school certs as being worthless, or at least undesireable. Apparently the only thing that counts in this guys' mind is one of those king-sized papers from a well-known organization. I was all set to lay out a big defense of school certs, but stories like yours always leave me pause for thought" y'know...even a cert from a well known org can be worthless, depending on who gave it to you. >> Are refering to the post on BUDOSEEK? If So, I made that statement. I don't believe in giving students dojang certificates alone. If the instructor is certificed with an organization, he should make it his duty to certify his students with that organization. I believe this will hurt the student's grow in the future when no other school honors their dojang rank. It happened to me. My previous instructor (7th dan HKD & 7th dan TKD) issued worhless dojang certificates and no school in the state would honor them. Also, he said that we would be receiving certification from the IHF that would able us to transfer to any IHF school. Well, this never happened. I joined the IHF myself and they informed me at the time he was only a 4th dan with them. His TKD certificate was from the Song Moo Kwan and not from the KKW. Master RO Hee Sang would come around during our promotion exams and even said the Song Moo Kwan certificates was pretty much worthless/undesireable these days. He stressed the importance of the KKW certificate to my instructor. Just my two cents... [TABLE NOT SHOWN][TABLE NOT SHOWN][IMAGE] --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] USTU DECERTIFICATION UPDATE (fwd) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding... USTU Decertification Update As everyone is aware, the United States Taekwondo Union is undergoing the Untied States Olympic Committee decertification process. At the October 18th USOC Board of Directors Meeting held in Cleveland, OH the USOC Membership and Credentials Committee recommended that the USTU be decertified by the USOC. This would result in the USTU losing its status as the national governing body for Taekwondo. The USOC Board of Directors voted to accept the recommendation made by the Membership and Credentials Committee. That does not mean that the USTU has now been decertified as the governing body. The USTU still retains its NGB status until the decertification process is complete. That process could take several months to complete. The USTU is confident that, through this process we will retain our USOC NGB status. That is because we have worked diligently to correct all of the problem areas cited by the USOC as being impediments to our recognition as an NGB. That includes improving the areas of financial management, day-to-day managerial capabilities, and our governance structure. We have agreed to the establishment of an oversight committee to monitor the activities of the USTU. This oversight committee would also develop the changes in our current Board of Governors structure, which is deemed too large and unwieldy. Further, they would recommend necessary changes to our current USTU Bylaws that will help bring the USTU into compliance as an NGB. The USTU will send athletes to compete at the 2003 International events, to include Open competitions, Junior World Championships, the Athens Olympic Games and other events as well. Additionally, the USTU will select and send athletes to the 2005 World Championships, and other World Taekwondo Federation events. The USTU will continue to be recognized by the World Taekwondo Federation, the International Federation (IF) that governs Taekwondo. Should the USTU be decertified as the Olympic NGB at the end of this process, only the funds from the USOC will no longer be available to the USTU and its athletes. We will still make funding available to send our athletes to international competitions. Our commitment to our athletes has not and will not waver. Throughout this process, the USTU will do everything to insure that we maintain our NGB status. Again, we are confident that we will come out of this process with our NGB status intact. We will also be stronger, smaller governing body that will further the cause of supporting our athletes in their quest for Olympic Gold medals. US Taekwondo Union One Olympic Plaza Ste 104C Colorado Springs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:05:31 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_TSD_Hyung_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Folks: I don't know if anyone is still interested in pursuing this but I did some GOOGLE-ing as well as YAHOO-ing and came up with quite a number of hits on Hwang Kee and associated factors. I thought I would throw out some of what I found. Please don't roast me if some of you folks "in the know" already have the inside dope on what I am about to write. There was quite a bit of "spin" on some of the histories, but here are some of the more consistent or intersting points. 1.) Hwang Kee was born in Korea on November 9, 1914. So when he left, or was chased out of Korea during the Japanese occupation (in May, 1935) he would have been about 19 or so. 2.) Apparently Hwang Kee worked for the Manchurian railroad and was stationed out of the town of "Man Chu Ri" (Man Joo). Have not been able to locate this town on a map yet but perhaps others might be able to help me here. There was evidently a Kou Shu Kwon or "National Technique Institute" located there which means it would have had to have been a reasonably size town. Apparently this is where Hwang Kee learned his Boxing under Yang, Kuk Jin. 3.) A year later (1936) Hwang Kee began training under Yang, Kuk Jin. There were a number of references to this gentleman teaching YANG TCC but I have looked through a few lineages for Yang TCC and do not find him listed. Reading the history on tkdtutor.com this particular teacher seems to have taught Tan Tui ("Dham Toi Sip E Ro") among a variety of other bits including some style of Tai Chi ("Tae Kuk"). Apparently Hwang Kee trained with Yang until August 1937 when he went back to Korea. He came back to China in 1941 and visited and trained with his teacher. 4.) Now, in 1939 apparently Hwang Kee began working for the Chosun Railroad so he would have been in their employ when he went back to Manchuria in 1941 rather than the Japanese per se. According to what I read he had been visiting the library and reading up on the original Okinawan material and Kata. The only book that I could find on Shotokan version of this material was "Ryukyu Kempo: Karate" by Funakoshi (1922) and/or its revised edition "Rentan Goshin Karate-jutsu" (1923). I would find it hard to believe that an obscure library in Manchuria would have these. I don't think even libraries in Korea would have had these, but maybe they did. I put my money on Hwang Kee hanging out with the Japanese and picking things up from them or reading whatever published materials they had. I also don't think these books were all that inclusive of detailed information on the various hyung as the more modern books of today are. Well, thats about all I have right now. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:13:28 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_First_Hand_Experience?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jeff: ".....I'll let you know how the weekend goes......that is, if you're interested. I've trained with some Great Big Hapkido people (not to be mistaken with any O-Sabumnim's...) and I am interesting as a point of comparison. If nothing else, it should be quite interesting, it's worth the $250 for me I guess...." I think everybody needs to make up their own mind with this stuff. There are just way too many stories, charges, counter-charges and so forth. Sooner or later people need to try this stuff out and see where they are with it. I'm not just talking about Wannabee himself, but the whole organization whether its KMAIA, NHF, or KHF. The only way to really gauge where this stuff is for you is to go take a look, talk with these people and listen to their story. For my part I recognize the patterns, the personalities and so forth and I want no part of their spin on Hapkido, but thats me. We're talking about my background, my life experience, my training and so forth. Were I you, I'd go down there, and take a mat-eye perspective. See who says what, who they say it to, who wants their pic taken with who, who gets onto the mat and for how long, what they do while they are on the mat....etc....etc....etc.. I hope its a decent experience for you. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Johnjfitzg@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:17:02 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, rterry@idiom.com CC: Johnjfitzg@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] ITF/WTF and Leaving Instructor Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Re. ITF/WTF and Leaving Instructor Mr. Damian Jones, You are at a point which many of us have found ourselves. You wrote the following: "How many of you have left their first instructor and for what reason? The reason I ask is that I am currently a 2nd Dan and have been training for the past 8 years. I feel that I am not getting out of Taekwondo what I used to and that I have reached a plateau in my current situation. The main reason I can think of being that I am not getting much from my instructor. It is over a year since I graded and have been shown my new pattern only a couple of times and that was by a higher graded student and not my instructor. I don't think that I have been trained by my instructor for the past year. I am also heavily involved in teaching at the club that I train at and we rarely see our instructor whose club it is. I have nothing against teaching the students but feel that I should still be being taught by my instructor. I am considering moving to another club (ITF tae kwon do, I am currently WTF) so that I can start learning again. I would appreciate any advice or experiences from others on the list (re- WTF to ITF or leaving their instructor/club)." I have a few comments and suggestions which may help you. 1. My first advice is to be professional with regards to your current instructor. On this point, Mr. T Gordon gave you very good advice. Thomas Gordon recommended.-"In regards to your situation, I would sit down with your instructor. Invite him to lunch and go over your desires and how you need training. If he doesn't pick up on it, then I would leave on the best terms possible. A two-week notice just as you were quitting a job. As hard as it'll be, I wouldn't tell any of the students where you were going. They'll find out soon enough and it'll take his thunder from badmouthing you." 2. Getting bored with a fighting system after achieving BB is very common. If you look at most of the systems, you will find that most of new material is in the color belt ranks up to black belt. After one has learn most of the fighting system and achieved black belt, than they practices for years and years the same material in order to ultimately master it. If there instructor has a senior BB dan rank and is a good instructor than they will develop the BB and promote them up through the various dan ranks until the BB is recognized as a "master". During BB period there are some new forms and techniques, but most of the knowledge is learned prior to BB. If you are familiar with the "80/20 rule", you will note it could apply here. Basically, one learns approximately 80% of the material in approximately 20% of the time. In your case, you need to determine if you want to spend your remaining time learning the remaining material and mastering all of it. 3. If you are near receiving your 3rd dan BB, than you should stay and achieve this goal. One never knows if the opportunity will present itself again in the future so take advantage of it now. You should also note that one needs to have at least a 4th dan BB in TKD/WTF in order to have their school recognized by the USTU and to promote others to BB in this system. (You can double check this in the USTU by laws, but I believe it to be correct.) 4. Leaving one instructor for another is not unusual. There can be many reasons for doing it. I practiced TSD/MDK for many years and changed instructors a few times because my life had changed including entered a demanding professional career after completing college, got married, moved a few times etc. In addition, my first instructor was not yet a master (4th dan and higher) so my growth was somewhat limited at the time. If you read the history or background of the famous masters/grand masters, you will find that many of them had several instructors in their careers and many of them studies several fighting systems. 5. Moving from TKD/WTF to TKD/ITF will provide you with learning some new material. Several years ago, I moved from TSD/MDK to TKD/WTF because my children were interested in starting in MA and there were no TSD/MDK near our new home. It was fun for me to learn TKD/WTF. I had to learn 11 forms, 35 one step sparring combination techniques, Olympic sparring, dozens of specific combination techniques and many other different drills in order to test for BB in TKD/WTF. Because the basic techniques are the same as TSD/MDK, I learning it and received a BB in TKD/WTF in 8 months. (I should note that I worked hard at it and I learn fairly quickly.) The point is the learning was fun, but not significant and I believe you would find the same if you move from TKD/WTF to TKD/ITF. You will find point sparring different from Olympic sparring. Point sparring uses more hand techniques and more variety of kicks which I see as a strength in this form of sparring vs. Olympic. 6. I would recommend that stay with TKD/WTF, but add a grappling fighting system such as hapkido, jujutsu, or judo etc.. and reduce the amount of time that you practice TKD/WTF, if need be. This will provide you with many more new techniques and will make you a well rounded MA. You should find it a significantly richer learning experience than learning another similar striking system. Many of the famous masters/grand masters have study both a grappling fighting system and a striking fighting system such as TKD or karate. In addition, many of the famous American MA’s have recommended studying both a grappling fighting system and a striking fighting system in recent years. Some of these opinions have been in response to the results of the "fully contact mixed martial arts competitions." In any case , it is some food for thought. Hope this helps and good luck. John --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Oh Se Lim & KHF in Florida To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I'm interested in hearing about the weekend as well. While GM Oh Se-lim's > signature is on my dan certificates, I have never trained with him. For a > number of reasons, I can't make it to Florida, but would like to hear how > it goes. It appears that Oh Se-lim may actually show up in Florida contrary to previous predictions. He has been in contact with some VERY senior Korean-American HKD Grandmasters and has learned even more about our chubby friend down Florida way. He indicated that he may make the journey over to try and clean up the mess and probably kick some chubby butt. So, if people have the chance they should show up, paid or otherwise... just to further inform President Oh as to the problems a certain Floridian has caused here in the USA. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest