Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 03:01:49 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #462 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re;Leaving Your Instructor (Manuel Maldonado) 2. Re: Naihanji/Naihanchi/ Bassai/Passai (Bernard Redfield) 3. Re: TSD/SBD/MDK jambalia (Bernard Redfield) 4. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:TSD_Hyung_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 5. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Certs_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 6. RE: Oh Se Lim & KHF in Florida (Tammy & Greg Hindley) 7. Re: worthless certs (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 8. Missing Rudy (lcanuck) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Manuel Maldonado" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:02:08 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re;Leaving Your Instructor Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I agree with John. If I had to do it all over again I would have done that. Studied Judo or something else to add to my knowledge. I have a friend former student 3rd Dan TKD 5th Dan Judo his curriculum is something to admire. Me I just stuck to Tae Kwon-Do I'm currently working with Master Julian Lim he too is TKD and HKD that to me is admireble. Master Urbistondo from this list trains in Kung-Fu, Hapkido, Taekwondo and several arts he too is admireable. Me I'm not too old or anything just maybe antiquated. Master Urbistondo and I got together just the other day and exchanged techniques. A learning experiance for me and I'm sure for him as well. I've meet some of you in person and I'm pleased to have meet each and everyone of you. Master Maldonado ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Send instant messages to anyone on your contact list with MSN Messenger 6.0. Try it now FREE! --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:43:49 -0400 From: Bernard Redfield To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Naihanji/Naihanchi/ Bassai/Passai Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Also we learned the name Naihanji (cho, ee, and sam dan) Now they > are refered to as Kee Mah hyung as GM C.S. Kim says that these names are > more traditional(older) That is an interesting development, the stance that is prevalent in the form is Kee Mah Jaseh(Horse Stance), the old name for the form was Neh Bo Jin, Neh= inside/inward - Bo=step - Jin= advance, or stepping to the inside advancing sideways, I have heard also that the three hyung were done together as a longer form , the old name for that escapes me right now.the creator of the form may have been Jang Songe Kye, but that is open to conjecture. As for Bassai/Passai or Pal Che, it also means, Storm a Fortress or To Enter the Fortress or selection of the best fast motions, depending on who you ask. Tang Soo bernard --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:49:32 -0400 From: Bernard Redfield To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: TSD/SBD/MDK jambalia Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Soo Bak Do player do some(all) Tang Soo Do Hyung > Tang Soo Do players do only the Tang Soo Do Hyung and not the SBD sets > MDK TKD has roots in the MDKTSD but may or may not do any TSD sets. This would of course depend on when the Organization in question left the MDK and also if the organization has since decided to add the Chil Sun/ Yuk Rho Hyungs to the curriculum, as I have seen both scenarios come about over the years. Tang Soo Bernard --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:38:06 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:TSD_Hyung_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Denise: ".....This is a complicated political and emotional issue for many (most?) folks involved with TSD, TKD, SBD -- and MDK. You will find nearly as many explanations (shadings) on what this means as there are practitioners practicing any one of these variations -- especially once you introduce the "MDK" letters. The discussion then can become even more heated......." >From what started as a discussion of hyung seems to be sliding towards a more political bent. Thanks a lot for shedding some light on this. I think what I was trying to do was get a sense for----if you'll pardon me borrowing a phrase from Watergate--- "what did he (Hwang Kee) know and when did he know it?". I am not even going to pretend that I can follow this exactly but what I am understanding is that Hwang Kee took what he had learned in China (Tan Tui and Tai Chi Long Fist) and added the kata of the Okinawan tradition albeit in their Shotokan version.The result was an art he called Hwa Soo Do and his school which he called the "institute of martial virtue". In 1947 apparently he met up with Won Kuk Lee and Chun Sang Sup (of Yun Mu Kwan fame) and in September 1953 the Korean Tang Soo Do Assn was formed and later renamed the Korea Soo Bahk Do Assn in June, 1960. After that there was a major split and in 1957 he apparently also added material from the MYTBTJ and renamed what he was doing "Soo Bahk Do of the Moo Duk Kwan." Now, all of this is fine and good, but what I was trying to get my fingers around originally was what was going on with this mans' head? By that, I mean, it is not enough to speak in terms of material learned, added and taken away. I think what is truely important is to know what it was that Hwang Kee was trying to accomplish. For instance, in Hapkido, the reason that what we practice is not just a mess of disparate techniques is that they are all bound together by the Three Principles. And even if one adds weapons work, all the material is still bound together by these three principles. So what are the commonalities that bind TSD material together? How does one bind a collection of Japanese interpretations of Okinawan Kata, together with Tan Tui which is reputedly derived from Muslim tradition, together with Yang Tai Chi, together with Taek Kyon? My own personal spin is that if one were to take the Tan Tui 12 as the introductory material, move to Naifanchi, then Bassai, Then KuShan-Ku then Chinto and end with Cannonfist one would have a cohesive progression from an introduction in linear/concussive technique and culmiating in circular/redirective technique. Can anyone say if Hwang Kees' view of the art he was organizing had any such comprehensive view after this fashion or any other? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:49:19 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Certs_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ali: "....Are refering to the post on BUDOSEEK? If So, I made that statement. I don't believe in giving students dojang certificates alone. If the instructor is certificed with an organization, he should make it his duty to certify his students with that organization. I believe this will hurt the student's grow in the future when no other school honors their dojang rank......" Was that YOUR post? I'm not sure where I saw it but the idea stuck with me. There is something very wrong with the jumble of views that I hear regarding a teachers' relationship with their students. On the one hand it seems as though some teachers just want a cash-&-carry relationship while others expect a sustained and binding relationship. Some teachers are worthy of these relationships and some students seem unwilling to extend themselves. Then flip the coin over and you have students wanting a soulful connection with a teacher and the instructor just wants a signature on the check. But, no matter which way the coin falls I don't think that an organizational cert will compensate. To my way of thinking, if a student needs to put his faith in what a paper says versus what he can demonstrate on the mat, the teacher has fallen on his responsibilities and no amount of expensive wall paper is going to make up for this. But if a teacher does his job and meets his committments, needing to have a cert, in the end, would just be an after-thought. Whatchathink? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Tammy & Greg Hindley" To: Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:09:58 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Oh Se Lim & KHF in Florida Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jeff my "Brother" in life and in Hapkido. Have a safe trip. God Bless. I hate flying. Cant wait to hear about what happens in Florida with our controversial HKD person!!! Can't wait to see you in CO November 15th in Aurora for the WHA Seminar. Im driving 1000 miles round trip. With Master Tae Jung it should be a great learning experience. Anyone from the digest besides Jeff and I planning on attending? Greg >Bruce- >Well, can't say I blame you. However, with a $50 ticket in my possession I >am quite interested to see what's going on down there. >As I said initially, I could care less about any of it, I'm interested in >doing some Hapkido with people and hopefully remembering 3 or 4 things I >can use. >Too bad you're not going, would be interesting to meet you. >I'll let you know how the weekend goes......that is, if you're interested. >I've trained with some Great Big Hapkido people (not to be mistaken with >any >O-Sabumnim's...) and I am interesting as a point of comparison. If nothing >else, >it should be quite interesting, it's worth the $250 for me I guess. >Jeff --__--__-- Message: 7 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 22:21:00 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: worthless certs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net """"mel: <<"If you are wondering why I am hitting this particularly hard, I recently read a post on a discussion Net where the poster disparaged school certs as being worthless, or at least undesireable. Apparently the only thing that counts in this guys' mind is one of those king-sized papers from a well-known organization. I was all set to lay out a big defense of school certs, but stories like yours always leave me pause for thought" y'know...even a cert from a well known org can be worthless, depending on who gave it to you. >> Are refering to the post on BUDOSEEK? If So, I made that statement. I don't believe in giving students dojang certificates alone.""""" hi ali, no, that was bruce, i believe. i was just pointing out some more worthless certs. i think its nice to have school certs and org certs. just nice. to colleagues, my kkw lets them know how much minimum time i've spent in the art and that i've had an instructor. that's it. school certs are nice to have for posterity...personally. a school cert means nothing to anyone else but me, imho. pretty paper. feels nice to be recognized by an instructor. other than that...not worth much. i just think it sucks that KKW instructors are out there handing out fake certificates. my first instructor did it and fooled people into thinking they were real. the guy on ebay states that they are not KKW certs and are not recognized by the WTF. but other than you, me, the seller and the buyer, who else will know? the buyers students? doubtful that they could tell the difference. just my 2 cents, mel Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 22:30:09 -0400 (EDT) From: lcanuck To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Missing Rudy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rudy Timmerman said: "Alas, I'm sure no one missed me:)" On the contrary, before I read the DD, I always check to see who has made a comment, every time I see your name, I smile in anticipation! Lois Knorr --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest