Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 03:01:50 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #463 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: worthless certs (Ray Terry) 2. Re:TSD Hyung (HyOSSilver) 3. Choosing a school (L. L.) 4. Bruce on TSD, SBD... (George Peters) 5. Re: certifications (Rob Frankovich) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Okinawan_Hyung/kata?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. Re: Bruce on TSD, SBD... (Ray Terry) 8. Re: Leaving your instructor (Beungood@aol.com) 9. Re:Tang Soo Hyung and GM Hwang Kee (Bernard Redfield) 10. Re: Fake Certs... (Manuel Maldonado) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: worthless certs To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > were real. the guy on ebay states that they are not KKW certs and are not > recognized by the WTF. but other than you, me, the seller and the buyer, who else > will know? the buyers students? doubtful that they could tell the difference. Strangely enough at the Sang Moo Sa store in Seoul, at the bottom of the hill leading up to the Kukkiwon, they sell blank Kukkiwon certs. I think they are now available via their mailorder catalog. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "HyOSSilver" To: Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 23:11:24 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:TSD Hyung Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I've been lurking on the list for a while and really enjoy all the discussion of where our various forms came from, here's a URL to a cross reference chart which seems to show where most forms discussed came from: http://www.geocities.com/david_a_hacker/MartialArts/matab.html I received a Cho Dan in USTSDMDK and then took a long leave from the art to live life and am now back training under CS Kim's ITF. So I really see the differences in forms taught between the 2 groups and enjoy seeing everyone dig up information on how and why things are different. What I really get confused with is all the different TSD groups out there, if anyone could put a list together it would really help understand who's talking about what group. Here's a few web pages to about the history of Tang Soo Do, hopefully it helps create more good discussions: http://torahscroll.com/ki/tangsoo.htm http://www.homestead.com/sanlen1/sanlen5.html http://www.geocities.com/nedu_99/history.htm http://www.chatlink.com/~dnolan/ http://www.tang-soo-do.org.uk/history.html Here's where I'm currently training, http://www.noblestangsoodo.com/index.html , if anyone is ever in the Cary NC area, please stop by and visit, this is one of the best schools. Tang Soo George --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "L. L." To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 23:20:21 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Choosing a school Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have been studying TKD for 3 years and I am trying to find another school to go to continue my training. My instructor's school is not doing so well. A lot of people are dropping out, some students are not happy anymore because they do the same thing day in and day out. I was wondering which would give the best instruction and guidance: a big school with 200 to 300 students or a smaller school with about 40-50 students. I visited a school with 200 students-they have a strict curriculum that they go by and a plan to help people get their black belt, and they have like a franchise-they have other schools across the nation and an intensive instructor's training program. It is an ITA school. I do WTF. I have visited another school that is small-has basic requirements for tests to the next belt level- but not coordinated like the bigger school. The school has 2 locations only. No curriculm for instructor's training program. Which is better? --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 01:14:56 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce on TSD, SBD... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir: Isn't it interesting that GM C.S. Kim and the International Tang Soo Do Federation teach that Soo Bahk Do is the old name for TSD? We are taught that Tang Soo Do is the combination of Soo Bahk Do and the techniques that GM Hwang Kee brought back from China. If I get a chance, I will ask GM Kim, then perhaps we will have an authoritative answer. It seems odd that there are so many conflicting views on such a recent event. Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy MSN 8 patented spam control and more with MSN 8 Dial-up Internet Service. Try it FREE for one month! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 05:20:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Rob Frankovich To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: certifications Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is an interesting topic. I've come to tthe conclusion that the certification you have is only valid for the "game" you play. Kukkiwon certifications can get you toward the Olympics but, at least around the Twin Cities, it won't be recognized by the majority of NASKA or NCKA schools. They have their own "organizations" and aren't too worried about making people start from white belt again. Personally I have Kuukiwon, AAU & ASMKA certifications and offer my students the opportunity to receive the certifications they want beyond my school. Many are content to just receive mine because they are training for their own goals and not worried about the "game." Thanks for your time. Rob Frankovich > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:49:19 -0500 (CDT) > From: > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Certs_?= > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Dear Ali: > > "....Are refering to the post on BUDOSEEK? If So, I > made that statement. I > don't believe in giving students dojang certificates > alone. If the > instructor is certificed with an organization, he > should make it his duty > to certify his students with that organization. I > believe this will hurt > the student's grow in the future when no other > school honors their dojang > rank......" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:35:23 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Okinawan_Hyung/kata?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Bernard: "......I have heard also that the three hyung were done together as a longer form , the old name for that escapes me right now.the creator of the form may have been Jang Songe Kye, but that is open to conjecture......" I don't know if that view that the Naifanchi was once a single long form will ever be proved or disproved. I have heard it both ways. To add to the discussion I had heard that NFC#1 was the single original form and that Itosu had added #2 and #3 as reinterpretations and/or extensions of the original. I had also heard that only #3 was made by Itosu and that the original form was actually what we now know as #1 and #2 put together. I don't think anyone knows for sure by I tend to follow whatever John Sells says in his book. He seems to have really done his homework. BTW: When it comes to talking about what each form teaches I had always heard that NFC form teaches how to fight in a narrow, elongated space. However, I remember that when I practiced Shudokan years ago, we often spared out of a low straddle-stance which could be amazingly agile while presenting a very narrow profile to ones' partner. Before the modern fighting stance (IE Western Boxing stance) became popular, that straddle stance seemed to be the preferred method in sparring. I still use NFC for the benefit it seems to give to keeping an edge on my advancing and retreating push-steps. BTW#2: When I train in NFC I have performed them separately as well as joined together. I don't practice #3. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Bruce on TSD, SBD... To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 06:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Isn't it interesting that GM C.S. Kim and the International Tang Soo Do > Federation teach that Soo Bahk Do is the old name for TSD? We are taught > that Tang Soo Do is the combination of Soo Bahk Do and the techniques that > GM Hwang Kee brought back from China. SooBahkDo or Subakki? I believe that Hwang Kee claimed that Soo Bahk Do came from Subakki, i.e. more than just his name SooBahkDo. But Subakki was lost to history and we, including Hwang Kee (RIP), have little to no idea what it was really like. Clearly what Hwang Kee taught was mostly what he learned from Lee Won-kuk, but I'm sure it was also influenced by what he learned in China and what he found in old references on Karate-do, Te and other MAs. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:08:10 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Leaving your instructor Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Leaving your instructor can be hard thing for many reasons friendship and loyalty are two that seem to be the most in play of the people Ive talked to . How many think also comfort level of what you have learned and trained in can be a factor when leaving? I think leaving sometimes is beneficial in that it will make you grow in ways of questioning and Challenging what you have learned and thinking of basic movement in different terms? I think you have to ask yourself are you recieving what you need and want from your training? Would you do things the way your current instructor is doing things? Is he being ethical in his dealings with others? Does he act like you think an instructor or Master should act? And I think loyalty is a two way street in that if your being neglected by your instructor then your not being respected and your loyalty is not being returned. Makes your decision a little easier in the long run.. Just my two cents.. Jack --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:15:02 -0400 From: Bernard Redfield To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Tang Soo Hyung and GM Hwang Kee Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Bruce, I would have to say to get an definitive answer your question go to: http://pub5.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=355783643&cpv=1 This is the Warrior Scholar website message board and is run by Sabom Dan Seggara, he is in constant contact with GM H.C. Hwang, the Late GM Hwang Kee's son, and has done quite a bit of research into just this. He should be able to give you the best answer on your topic. Tang Soo Bernard --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Manuel Maldonado" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 12:42:18 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Fake Certs... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net What is this art comming to? Buying a certificate off E-Bay come on, Man I have heard it all now. Another thing... If you are authorized to give out Kukkiwon Certs. why even waste your money making school certificates? Why not spen that money and make regognition Certs. Joe Blow from such and such Tae Kwon-Do Academy was promoted to the Rank of ___ Degree Black Belt by Kukkiwon and is been recognized by this institution as had put in his/her effort and time in training by Master John Doe. Or words to that effect. also in fine print "this is not a official Black belt Certificate and should not be used as such" But I guess it could be used as proof of rank. Dosn't the KKW No. mean anything? Well this world probably hasn't seen the last of the con artist we need to pull together and make a stand against fraud. My two cents. Manuel Maldonado http://devoted.to/Taekwondo ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Enjoy MSN 8 patented spam control and more with MSN 8 Dial-up Internet Service. Try it FREE for one month! --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest