Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 03:01:50 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #464 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Thanks (Rudy Timmerman) 2. Re: Different Styles of Hapkido (Duane Smiley) 3. seminar in florida (International Hapkido USA) 4. Re: Re: Different Styles of Hapkido (Ray Terry) 5. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Resource_"Warrior-Scholar_Net"_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 6. Fake KKW Certifications etc. (Johnjfitzg@aol.com) 7. Thanks (Damian Jones) 8. The value of certification (Rudy Timmerman) 9. Seminar Report. (Jason E. Thomas (Y!)) 10. George from ITF TSD........... (George Peters) 11. Re: Tang Soo Do History Hyung and stuff (Debra Dunn) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 02:19:50 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Thanks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Lois: Thank you so much. I am glad to say I have cleared up some of the backlog that was created by the email mess I found myself in, and I'll be posting regularly again. I see I missed out on some very good discussions. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Duane Smiley" To: Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 10:41:59 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Different Styles of Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net While visiting the web site for the Korean Hapkido Federation, I read that there are 76 different styles of Hapkido recognized by their Federation. Could some one please tell me about the different styles of Hapkido and what distinguishes one style from the others. Thank you in advance for your insight. Duane --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "International Hapkido USA" To: Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 09:53:03 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] seminar in florida Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello all, >From the picture posted on other chat sites, it appears that the big seminar in Florida drew only 43 - 45 people on the first day...interesting Kevin SogorGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Different Styles of Hapkido To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 08:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > While visiting the web site for the Korean Hapkido Federation, I read that > there are 76 different styles of Hapkido recognized by their Federation. On http://hapkidokorea.org/english? That is the official site for the KHF, but I didn't find anything about 76 styles of Hapkido there. Did I miss it? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 11:16:44 -0500 (CDT) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Resource_"Warrior-Scholar_Net"_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Bernard: ".....I would have to say to get an definitive answer your question go to: ....." Do you feel pretty good about the presentation of material on this Net? The impression I got was that folks who contributed there seemed to "shoot- from-the-hip" an awful lot and rarely quoted or documented sources. I don't want to run-down a resource before I check it out first hand, and citing an individual, rather than the Net is very different. Has anyone else you know had good things to say about how things are discussed on this particular ("warrior scholar") Net? Here it is a few years later and I am STILL smarting from what happened to me on a certain OTHER Net which shall remain nameless here. ;-) Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Johnjfitzg@aol.com Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 13:48:01 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, rterry@idiom.com CC: Johnjfitzg@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Fake KKW Certifications etc. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Fake KKW Certifications etc. I believe Mr. Manuel Maldonado is right about the counterfeit certification being fraud. I am not a lawyer, but I believe that someone using these certifications in a business in the USA could be subject to criminal and civil legal actions. My guess is any students who relied on such fraudulent representation may have a legal case if they sustain any damages such as losses due to fees paid for lessons and / or promotion exams. In addition, a state’s Attorney General office may be willing to investigate such fraudulent activity. Con artist beware. John --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Damian Jones" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:05:15 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Thanks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi, I'd just like to thank all the people that replied, on the DD or directly, to the leaving instructor WTF/ITF thread. Great advice from a great list. Damian _________________________________________________________________ Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN Messenger http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:36:47 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] The value of certification Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rob writes: > This is an interesting topic. I've come to tthe > conclusion that the certification you have is only > valid for the "game" you play. Kukkiwon certifications > can get you toward the Olympics but, at least around > the Twin Cities, it won't be recognized by the > majority of NASKA or NCKA schools. They have their own > "organizations" and aren't too worried about making > people start from white belt again. Hello Rob: I fear that you are on the money with this one (and I mean MONEY). Once, I witnessed a fourth dahn (who was trained and certified in Korea by a branch school) bring his credentials to the association HQ I was once part of. They turned him down with the comment that they MIGHT allow him to start at 2nd dahn. However, he was expected to pay for his recertification to third and fourth. You can imagine his disappointment. In my school, I normally accept credentials from a legitimate source (or from a school owner I personally know); however, the person is expected to begin with our basic material and can advance as quick as s/he can manage to show me the rank requirements are up to snuff. I do this, because I believe hard work should not be put down, and this is especially important for children who do not understand the politics. After reaching the original rank s/he came with, our normal time requirement are enforced. For my own students, I also take into consideration their physical limitations and age, and the rank they receive depends somewhat on their abilities. In order to do this, I teach two arts that are similar but yet different enough to challenge most. One art is extremely demanding and more like the old style training, and the other is a bit more relaxed. Despite the latter art being more relaxed, students who do not show enough spirit in ANY art will not be passed to black belt. I encourage ALL students to continue training in the hope that, together, we can reach their goals without compromising the value of the black belt. FWIW, one of my most prized black belts was both mentally and physically challenged; however, he did an awesome black belt test just the same. Today, this man (who was once thought of as incapable of looking after himself) is now taking care of his elderly mom, while his perfectly healthy sister (a nurse) and brother (a lawyer) don't even bother to visit mom. When he applied for membership in our school, quite a few of our members urged me not to let him join, and I often think how lucky I was not to give in to their pressure. I still get flack from some folks; however, I have no problem sleeping, and my reputation is still intact:) In my association it is a bit different, because the people applying for membership in NKMAA normally are "long distance" members whom I cannot work with as closely as I would like. Also, many applicants here are black belts looking for some credibility, and I am somewhat old fashioned about that. In these cases, I expect full documentation, copies of certification, and a personal evaluation or clear video footage proving their skills. IMHO, the certification I award through NKMAA is only as good as my reputation, and so I MUST take care not to devalue any certificates I have previously awarded. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Jason E. Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:44:13 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Seminar Report. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I just finished attending GM West's Hapkido Seminar hosted by GM Hodder in Seabrook, TX. It was a great event with plenty of talented martial artists and interesting techniques. I'd like to thank everyone who was kind enough to help us TKD Players to understand some of the finer mechanics of intricate Hapkido movements. If you get the chance, I highly recommend on of these seminars. I also got to see GM West finally receive his cape a boots, that alone was worth the price of admission ;). Regards, Jason E. Thomas Chief Instructor North Austin Tae Kwon Do www.natkd.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:21:47 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] George from ITF TSD........... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir: Please give my warmest regards to Sabumnim Noble and tell him we miss him in the Pittsburgh area. Always good to hear from another ITF member on the DD. Do you have to test on the 26th? Tang Soo! George Peters Beaver valley school _________________________________________________________________ Fretting that your Hotmail account may expire because you forgot to sign in enough? Get Hotmail Extra Storage today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Debra Dunn" To: Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 22:09:11 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Tang Soo Do History Hyung and stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, I'm just catching up, but I have a few things to add: <> This could be the case. ".....This is a complicated political and emotional issue for many (most?) folks involved with TSD, TKD, SBD -- and MDK. You will find nearly as many explanations (shadings) on what this means as there are practitioners practicing any one of these variations -- especially once you introduce the "MDK" letters. The discussion then can become even more heated......." <<>>> I don't think so(Political), necessarily. There has been a lot of splintering from the Moo Duk Kwan. First the guys that went with WTF. Then a lot of other senior masters that were sent out to found national orgs under the MDK wound up eventually leaving. The last fracturing probably had more to do with organizational problems within the MDK. Speaking for myself though, those folks that are still using MDK name and not a part of GM Hwang's organization are doing so incorrectly. During the mid eighties and to his death, Hwang Kee added the new Hyung that he created. These hyung are Chil Sung, Yuk Rho and Hwa Sun. I have seen and have worked some on some of these hyung, but they seem for the most part to be getting away from the hard linear motion of the Pyong Ahns and some other Okinawan based forms. Remember that in spite of the fact that at least three of the largest Kwans from the 40's on called their art Tang Soo Do, GM Hwang filed suit in 82, I think, over a splinter organization's use of the term. Most of the Tang Soo books list Soo Bahk Ki as the nominal Korean base for Tang Soo Do. I personally believe that the name change may have had more to do with being able to Trademark and control the term or name of his art than it did with anything else. But the changes in forms seem to be moving away from the hard linear approach much earlier than before. In essance, the traditional form arrangement, though there is some rank variation in the dan levels, really does not move away from hard linear motion until kodanja level. And most of the Senior Masters have written, following GM Hwang Kee, that Tang Soo Do is a "Hard and Soft" style. I never really saw much soft until at least 3rd dan in the forms, asside from a few techniques here and there. <<<<<<<>>>>>>>>> If you go back, to when the Moo Duk Kwan first opened, GM Hwang called his art Hwa Soo Do. The dojang failed rather quickly, apparently due to lack of interest. Since the MDK rapidly became the largest Kwan after Hwang reopened teaching the Japanese/Okinawan based forms, we may make an educated guess that Hwa Soo Do may have been much different, and based on the styles he studied in China, TCC, Tan Tui, and Shaolin Long Fist. By the way, I believe that Hwang Kee was considered more a peer by Lee than as a student, as some suggest. In any event, he was very successful teaching Japanese/Okinawan based cirriculum. But I believe that he only began teaching this after his first failure with Hwa Soo Do. <<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>> GM Kang's book is not the best, but it is usable and the price is certainly reasonable. GM Shin's form book is better done I believe, but it runs about $45 in hardback. Others have already been mentioned. There are some differences in my forms, WTSDA, under GM Shin, Jae Chul, but for the most part they are minor. Also remember, you can see videos of M MacHeny's versions of a lot of the Tang Soo forms on his website. Korean and Japanese in parenthesis is fine for discussion of particular forms. But remember that some Tang Soo forms are known by their Okinawan/Japanese name while others are known by Korean pronuonciation or a different Korean name. Hope this was of some help. Danny Dunn --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest