Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:15:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #476 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Re: Do we practice martial arts? (Grant D. Watson) 2. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Palgwe_Forms?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 3. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_High_Kicks?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 4. Thank You Jye (Divetony@aol.com) 5. BudoSeek (SEXTONR003@hawaii.rr.com) 6. Re: Cross training conflict? (Beungood@aol.com) 7. Re: Thank You Jye (Jye nigma) 8. TSD the percentages for Ken (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 9. Re: Frauds, Fakes, and Rules (Jesse Segovia) 10. Re: Where are the (KMA) others? (David N. Beck) 11. Re: USOC & USTU (ChunjiDo@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:06:20 -0800 (PST) From: "Grant D. Watson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Do we practice martial arts? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I haven't noticed any responses to this yet, and I'm always glad to bite off more than I can chew. Bruce writes: > I have had this bee buzzing around in my bonnet for > a few weeks now as I > listen to the various discussions. Are we > practitioners of KMA actually > practicing a martial art? Yes, I know. It sounds > like a dumb question but > consider the facts. Well, to state the obvious, that depends on your definition. Yours apparently is based on the component words; I don't think that's the best way to go. A butterfly does not involve butter or flies. To be honest, though, I have no idea of the etymology of the term. Does one of you know where it came from? > a.) TKD and TSD are related not to an art praticed > by the military in > Korea but a common street game practiced by the > common population as a > substitute for Soo Bahk whose competitions were > outlawed in the 14th > century. In fact, nobody really knows what Soo Bahk > actually looked like > anymore than we know what the swordwork of the > HwaRang warriors looked > like --- though we know they DID use swords. Actually, I thought it was generally accepted by the folks on the list (especially by those as historically knowledgable as yourself) that TKD & TSD are based _very_ heavily in Karate (mostly Japanese) -- not that Karate is a military art. At any rate, I don't see why a military ancestry is a necessary component of a martial art? > b.) Hapkido arts derive from the inter-relating of > various amounts of > Japanese, Chinese and Korean material. Despite what > stories people tell > about Daito-ryu, the art as we know it today is a > relatively recent > construction. And as far as the Chinese material > goes, that which has been > incorporated into what is practiced on a daily basis > is nothing like what > was practiced by the Chinese military and seems more > heavily influenced by > practice by the common people. And if you don't like > the Korean traditions > one day, just wait a week and somebody will come up > with a whole closet > full of new traditions which had been secreted away > on the side of a No. > Korean mountain for a millenia. False histories, I hope, grieve everyone, but do they make our arts less martial? > c.) In a recent discussion we discussed the use of > hyung/kata which had > been developed in Okinawa and as far as I can tell > there are only a few > key people in those Okinawan traditions who ever had > any relationship to > some military or para-military position. And even > those traditions of that > island owe their roots not to military heritage but > to various civilian > sources in Southern China. Why is this a problem? > Somebody made a comment once about how old MA mythes > just seem to hang on > and on. I wonder if thats because there is some > small kernal of truth in > them or are we just to disconcerted to accept that > saying we practice > a "martial art", while maybe what we WANT to > believe, is not, in fact what > we are really doing. Thoughts? Hmm... perhaps some find legitimacy in false histories, but still... a term's meaning is defined by its use, and the phrase "martial arts" is used in reference to Asian (and sometimes Western) fighting arts that share certain characteristics. What those characteristics _are_ is an interesting question, but I don't think a military background is one of them. ===== Grant D. Watson, __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:22:06 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Palgwe_Forms?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Keith: ".....Having studied both MDK TSD and TKD, I can see many similar movements between the Pyung-Ahn and Palgwe form sets, therefore I assume most of the movements in the Palgwe were "pieced together" from the "classical" hyung....." Nice topic!! This is one after my own heart! The WHF Hyung are have significant portions which are identical to portions of the Pinan Kata albeit excuted with Shotokan-like postures. I know that GM Myung has a strong background in TKD so it seems reasonable that he would have borrowed from that material. But I, too, have often wondered what motivated him to use some movements and not others, to execute them in the order in which he did, and to insert kicks in the places that he did. I have stopped asking him questions like this when I noted that he was becoming increasingly short with me and I have since seriously questioned just how much penetrating analysis goes into organizing these "official forms". Why not just take the kata that people have been doing for centuries and put your own particular spin on it, rather than invent a new form and mandate a standard to which everyone must comply without providing the thinking behind its organization. Anybody? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:33:25 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_High_Kicks?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Bill: "..... But in spite of my positive attributes and skills there is still this nonsensical love in TKD for high kicks (even though we've been told numerous times "In a real fight you do NOT want to kick high"). I love martial arts and the hard workout, but I have almost abandoned TKD because of the demand for "high kicks"....." I think I know what you are saying but I can offer an alternate thought. In Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido we speak of never kicking above chest level. If you want to kick higher than that you need to either perform some initial technique that brings the high targets down or raise the the pelvis higher by performing a jump kick of some sort. However, the point I would stress is the great difference between combat and sport application. In sport one is attempting to demonstrate prowess as compared to another person. To do this the nature of the technique needs to be significantly above what would normally be performed. Besides in a sport application one need not necessarily worry about the other person lucking out and nailing you with impunity. In combat, however, while kicks can be used, I would stress lower kicks. With this in mind I can imagine stressing high kicks in training so that lower kicks might be used, full power, kicking cold. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Divetony@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:46:02 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Thank You Jye Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you for the insight I will try it that way. I'm sure I'll get it witha little practice. I have no intentions of not breaking the board on my test. Thanks again. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: To: Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:11:10 -1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] BudoSeek Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I've cruised on over to BudoSeek a couple of times and even tried to post after registering. I keep getting a message that I'm not allowed in...is that cause I'm a legit HKD guy or illegitimate by birth? There was a post there about personal attacks on individuals. I think personal attacks are fine if for example, the individual puts out videos that show lack of skill, writes books with errors (on Chinese Medicine for ex.), is a red belt one year and a Grandmaster the next, or has a questionable educational background, etc., etc.. Mr. Burrese, that deal about your wife not speaking correct Korean was too funny (and sad). Randall Sexton www.SextonsHapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:27:10 -0500 From: Beungood@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Cross training conflict? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 10/30/2003 11:24:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > As far as cross-training in ju-jutsu or karate if you have to worry about > > losing one art through training in another art that should be your first > > clue. It seems to me that to cross-train in arts which > are not harmonics >>>>> I don't think I would worry about it. I would look at it in terms of learning a new form of basic movement. It will compliment what you already have. I have corss trained in Pekiti-Tirsia Kali and found that it's footwork enhanced what I already new and opened actually sharpened up andshed light on some techniques I didn't really care for. I think you will find it greatly accelerates picking up new skills for your "Toolbox". My .02 cents... JAck O --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:31:13 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Thank You Jye To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net No problem. The simple answer is 'see' yourself doing it in your mind, then and only then will you be able to do it. Jye --- Divetony@aol.com wrote: > Thank you for the insight I will try it that way. > I'm sure I'll get it witha > little practice. I have no intentions of not > breaking the board on my test. > Thanks again. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:21:51 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] TSD the percentages for Ken Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ken, How to answer this, with no disrespect to GM Hwang. I don't know that I or anyone else can tell you where any of the percentages derived from. It was probably a matter of GM Hwang's interpretation of what constituted each constituent. After all, soo bahk ki, was not a formal system during GM Hwang's life. There were most likely bits and pieces here and there, but the biggest link was probably later on when he began to incorporate his own interpretation of Moo Yae Dobo Tongi into his art. There are 2 possible trains of thought on southern China. One is So Rim Jang Kwan. The other is through the Japanese/Okinawan forms, some of which have rather strong links directly back to various Chinese Styles. But I would have to say based on my personal experience that the Okinawan link which GM Hwang did not address directly is the overwhelming majority of material on movement and power generation, although our focus on legs and feet and to a lesser extent, method of power generation is GM Hwang's legacy. Danny Dunn <<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:23:53 -0500 From: Jesse Segovia To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Frauds, Fakes, and Rules Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net So far I've been unable to attend one of JR West's seminars but I hope to one day. The best seminar I've attended recently was hosted by GM Ji HanJae, the man I believe taught many of the senior folks attending the recent Florida seminar. GM Ji gets out on the mat and does it all himself, truly understands the art, and is a very generous spirit, generous with his time and with the techniques, theories, etc. GM Ji is a living legend. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend his seminars as an extremely valuable martial arts experience. By the way, I's also like to see the frauds and fakes list. Can anyone who gets a copy post it or at least point to it if it's available online somewhere? I hope it turns out to be more than just someone's enemies list. Jesse From: > ... where are the OTHER KHF people? Indeed, where are the OTHER KMA > people? I'm not questioning the individuals you selected in your post. > I am sure that if you have been to their seminars you know of which > you speak. However, what I am talking about are the people who can > provide quality KMA instruction at quality seminars. We have seen > quite a few months of what NOT to do. Now, I would like to see some > folks step up to the plate and let the KMA community know that there > are alternatives to the circus we have witnessed. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:37:01 -0600 From: "David N. Beck" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Where are the (KMA) others? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net At the risk of sounding like an opportunist, I am teaching a Hapkido seminar on November 22nd in Euless, Texas. (suburb of Fort Worth) http://www.beckmartialarts.com/BeckflyerCane.html A much much much smaller scale than GM West or GM Timmerman's, but one does what one can. Regards, -- David N. Beck dnbeck@beckmartialarts.com http://www.beckmartialarts.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:05:46 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: USOC & USTU Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net USOC Press Release: USOC to proceed with decertifying USTU U.S. Olympic Committee To Proceed With Decertifying U.S. Taekwondo Union   by - U.S. Olympic Committee () FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE October 29, 2003 U.S. Olympic Committee To Proceed With Decertifying U.S. Taekwondo Union COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. – The United States Olympic Committee (USOC) announced today that it is proceeding with the process of decertifying the U.S. Taekwondo Union (USTU) as the National Governing Body for the sport of taekwondo. At its October 18 meeting in Cleveland, the USOC Board of Directors approved a recommendation made by the Membership and Credentials Committee to proceed in decertifying the USTU – a process that involves revoking the USTU’s membership in the U.S. Olympic Committee and removing its designation as the National Governing Body for the sport. In the days since, the USOC has attempted to work out a remediation plan with the USTU for the governance and management of taekwondo that would leave the USTU as the National Governing Body. Earlier today, the USTU Executive Committee, led by President Sang Lee, rejected those efforts. As a result, the USOC will continue moving forward with the decertification process. "It is unfortunate that the leadership of the U.S. Taekwondo Union has rejected the remediation plan offered by the USOC and has failed to effectively confront the problems facing the organization,” said USOC Chief of Sport Performance Jim Scherr. “We regret having to take these steps, but we are forced to do so based upon the clear lack of resolve that has been shown by the current USTU leadership. “We intend to move quickly and aggressively through this process. However, we will take all steps necessary to ensure that the interests of the athletes are in no way harmed or compromised,” added Scherr. U.S. Olympic Committee auditors have determined that the USTU’s financial and managerial capabilities are not adequate to properly fulfill the responsibilities associated with being a National Governing Body. Further, the USTU has historically shown an inability to effectively manage its operations and the organization’s financial records do not meet acceptable financial standards. The USOC has audited the USTU’s accounting for USOC funding eight times in 11 years and has repeatedly noted breaches in internal controls and adopted policies. Since 1992, the USTU has had to repay $244,620 in USOC funding due to unsubstantiated or inappropriate expenditures.  Since 1997, the USTU has had four executive directors and five finance directors. The USTU currently does not have a finance director. Most recently, the USOC was informed that the USTU has failed to make scheduled support payments to eligible athletes. Based upon the rejection by the USTU Executive Committee of the remediation plan offered by the USOC, and in keeping with the recommendation of the USOC Membership and Credentials Committee that was approved by the USOC Board of Directors, the following measures will immediately be implemented: 1. A formal complaint against the USTU will be filed with the USOC Executive Committee, which is the necessary next step in moving forward with decertification. The USOC is preparing to complete the decertification process in a matter of weeks. Once the process is complete, the USOC will manage the sport in the United States, select all international teams, and oversee the provision of benefits and services, without interruption, to taekwondo athletes and coaches; 2. The USOC began halting base funding payments to the USTU in January 2003 and will continue to do so; 3. There has been no interruption in the performance funding provided directly by the USOC to eligible taekwondo athletes. This funding will continue, without interruption, and payments will be made directly to eligible taekwondo athletes; 4. The USOC will use all available means to seek the immediate repayment of the approximately $206,000 the USTU currently owes the USOC; 5. Should the USTU be decertified before a scheduled national qualifying tournament in November, the USOC will manage that event; 6. Because of the apparent financial mismanagement of the USTU, the USOC is concerned that current assets be safeguarded and utilized only in accordance with proper accounting policies and acceptable financial procedures, and for the benefit of taekwondo athletes. The USOC will again be requesting assurances from the USTU that those assets not be diverted for the personal benefit of any individual associated with the USTU and will be utilized only for the benefit of athlete programs approved by the USOC. The USOC had previously requested those assurances, but none were given; 7. Should the USTU be decertified, the USOC will reclaim the office space currently being used by the USTU at the U.S. Olympic Complex in Colorado Springs; 8. The USOC will seek the cooperation and assistance of the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) during this process and request that the WTF initiate decertification proceedings concerning the USTU's membership in the WTF; 9. The USOC will seek the immediate return of a vehicle provided to the USTU; 10. The USOC will continue to explore all other appropriate legal remedies to protect the interests of taekwondo athletes and the Olympic movement. Members of the media: For more information, please contact USOC Media and Public Relations at (719) 866-4531.  Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest