Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:12:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #479 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Old Time Training (Rudy Timmerman) 2. Honor and Stuff (Stovall, Craig) 3. Re: 20th International Seminar (Ray Terry) 4. Re: Fraud (Jonathan D. Payne) 5. Heavy Bag Wear and Tear (Vincent DeSalvo) 6. Re: street attack (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 7. recommendation (Braeswood Martial Arts) 8. Chayon-Ryu (Michael Falba) 9. Re: street attack (Aaron Lassman) 10. High Kicks do work! (Johnjfitzg@aol.com) 11. Korean Ryu ?? (Ray Terry) 12. The term Martial Arts (Johnjfitzg@aol.com) 13. High kicks do work, sometimes (Ray Terry) 14. RE: 20th International Seminar (Jason E. Thomas (Y!)) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:53:09 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Old Time Training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Kat writes: > Hello David, > As long ans nothing interferes and I survive BB testing and power > weekend in the Soo, I hope to attend and bring a student or two. Kat is referring to the NKMAA "old time training" I have scheduled for the week of November 10-16th. To ease travel expenses and a return trip, I have also scheduled a geup and dahn test at the end of that week. This week of training will be done in the manner I was taught back in the fifties, and members are expected to sleep in my dojang, do some "wax on and wax off" things, and complete our challenge course (including a dip in the icy waters of Lake Huron:) David, if I were you I would not expect a heck of a lot out of Kat:) She is not only doing this intensive week long course, she is also testing for second dahn. Most who know me will realize that this won't be a walk in the park for her. However, I know she has good spirit, and she'll do her best at your event. Again, I wish you the best with your seminar. FWIW, I accepted a small group of about a dozen people as personal students. This was more or less in response to a number of folks (on whom I had never laid a finger) telling the world that they were my personal students, and everyone know that to be my personal student you WILL feel what a technique does to a person. Once this group has completed a series of five such seminars with me, I will announce that they are my students (if they can complete it:) I will also list this on my website, and that will hopefully prevent people from making claims that are not true. In closing, I wish the folks who are heading North a safe journey. Don't get hurt on the way, I'll take care of that when you get here:) Rudy --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:59:48 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Honor and Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net One of the recent postings about "honor" combined with some of the political wranglings in the martial arts community got me to thinking about honor and how it applies to what I and others are doing. I think one of the most useful ways of thinking about honor I got from Matt Thornton of the Straight Blast Gym. I believe he covers it on his website, but I first heard it mentioned on his original video series that he put out (which is quite excellent). He mentions the concept of "peasant honor" and "warrior/fighter honor". A person with peasant honor will bow down and submit to anyone that they deem superior to themselves. In turn, they will expect anyone that they deem to be inferior to bow down and submit to them. This type of thinking is very caste/class oriented. The flip side of that is the idea of having warrior honor. A person with warrior honor will bow down and submit to no man under any circumstances. At the same time, they expect no one to bow down and submit to them, regardless of circumstances. At first glance this sounds like an arrogant attitude, but I interpret it as being a person who respects the inherent value of all people, and who's own dignity/self-worth can neither be granted or taken away by another person. What this does for me is provide a quick and easy litmus test that can be applied to people's behaviors/beliefs/actions when determining if I want to be associated with them. When I hear of or see people that are overly concerned with using "correct" terminology, that are promoting the wearing of "official" uniforms, or are driven toward the attainment of "official" positions within "sanctioned" organizations...I typically see the display of peasant honor. These are the first people to say, "You must bow down and submit to my authority because you know less, are lower ranked, etc. Who says this is so...the guy who I have to bow down and submit to, that's who". So what we have is a chain of authority that rolls downhill per the pecking order rules established by the "top dog". In turn, we have people that aren't really engaging with each other on a genuine human level, but rather a collection of individuals interacting in a contrived manner that would look silly even when compared to the most draconian of Asian caste systems. Very little learning takes place, a WHOLE lot of political maneuvering goes on (how else do you get ahead in a system like that), and the mud starts flying when anybody inside or outside the system dares mention the fact that "things don't have to be like this". After all, anything that can't stand up against 5 minutes of critical thinking has to be guarded against the slightest hint of challenge. Is there honor in this type of environment? You bet...peasant honor. Contrast this with other environments I have witnessed myself and/or received testimony of. People of all ranks, styles, and ages coming together to interact and learn. The 7th degree black belt helping out the white belt newbie. The champion TKD player helping the Hapkido player with his kicking...Hapkido guy helping TKD guy with rudimentary joint locking theory/technique. People from different spectrums of experience working hard and having fun. Is rank, age and experience still recognized and honored? You bet. But they serve as metrics of accomplishment and knowledge...not barriers to communication and interaction. Not a contrived social interaction, but a learning/growing experience that is built upon authentic human engagement. Is there honor in this type of environment? You bet...warrior honor. I've been around this game for 17 years and I have seen a lot of things. Some good...some bad (and a whole lot of silly). The peasant/warrior dichotomy has taught me something useful. In order to love and respect others, I have to love and respect myself first. To me, that's one of the hardest things in the world. Craig Stovall's number one critic in the world is...Craig Stovall. Nobody is more intimately aware of my faults and shortcomings than that guy. Warrior honor forces me to observe the kind of environment/experience that I'm creating for both myself and others. If I'm a high ranking black belt, that doubles the challenge since I am likely the steward of a tradition or someone in which another person has placed some level of trust in me for their own development (call 911...I think I just channeled the spirit of Bruce Sims). Thinking like a warrior leads me to areas that result in growth for both parties...shooting for the true win-win. The peasant just sees it as an opportunity to put the coolie in his place, and to make "Uncle Daddy" a happy camper...and therefore propping up my own fragile ego and padding all the wallets from my end of the food chain and up. Here is my personal definition of "warrior"...I have shared it before, but I'll do it again. A warrior is anyone that fights for a cause that they perceive as being greater than themselves. Being a warrior is not about fighting...it's about having a reason to fight. Anyone who would put themselves on the line for a worthwhile cause, must surely have the sense of proportion to know that their own long-term well-being is closely associated with the long-term welfare of the next fella. Isn't this the very foundation of human ethical thought? Can I be a warrior without ethics? Can I have ethics without at least being concerned for my fellow human being? Not in my book (on sale now...send $1,000 for autographed copies). So, if it's any consolation...learn to have a warrior's honor. If you do that, you'll probably experience a whole lot of learning, make a whole lot of friends, and leave behind something for the next wave of fertilized eggs to build on. To the peasants out there...have fun with your belts, positions, certificates, organizations and hierarchies. Anything that makes it easier for you to look at yourself in the mirror each morning can't be all that bad. Just don't expect me to show up at your S&M pajama parties...I'll be too busy having an authentic experience with another genuine human being. Simple philosophy, but nobody has ever accused me of being the next Jean Paul Sartre. Hope that makes sense. This random rant on honor was brought to you by the letter H. Check your heads. Craig "Warriors Don't Need Tag Lines" Stovall P.S., And speaking of honor...do what the Bible says. Honor thy mother and father. After all, they had to put up with your crap for almost two decades. Oy!!! CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 20th International Seminar To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:22:18 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > We have just secured the dates for the 20th International HapKiDo and Korean > Martial Arts Seminar, which will be held IN IT'S ENTIRETY at the Jackson > Southwest Hotel on March 5th - 7th 2004. I will be sending out info packets > within the next few weeks, and if anyone would like to receive one, just > send me your mailing address. Thanx for your time.......J.R. West Count me in! Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Jonathan D. Payne" To: Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:26:38 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Fraud Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The gall of wannabes never ceases to amaze me. Alain is someone I can call a friend. I have never met Alain in person, but we have e-mailed and talked on the phone several times. I get a nice X-mas card from him every year. When I first learned of the internet and MA lists Alain was there to give me a hand. He might not like the term "Master" but that is what Alain is, of both the MA and etiquette. I'm not a high ranking TKD Dan member, and my knowledge of Hapkido is limited, but what I do know I have used on the street and in a corrections setting. The bottom line is those who can, do. Those that can't or won't smear those who can. I can't give Alain a high enough endorsement. Those who know me on this list know I'm a police officer and Alain is a lawyer. If I like him that should say volumes :^) Alain, please contact me off the list as my email and home address have changed. Jon David Payne --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Vincent DeSalvo" To: Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:47:30 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Heavy Bag Wear and Tear Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I been punching and kicking my 70# canvas heavy bag for over 30 years. Know not the same one. Well it time for a new one and I been thinking about the foam/water core (Wave) or the Hydro air/water system bags. Has anyone punch and kick on the old canvas rock hard bags and then tried one of these bags. How do they compare. I love my bag work but, my hands and knee are warning me to lighten up. Any feedback will be welcome on the good and bad of your experience with these bags over the old canvas. Thanks, Vincent --__--__-- Message: 6 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:48:04 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: street attack Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have read from past emails that high kicks are not recommended in a street attack.  So then, what 5 initial moves and where would you suggest are the first pre emptive strikes against an attacker on the street? RUN! the next one would be a kick to the knee :)...then run...lol ;) take care, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Braeswood Martial Arts" To: Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:34:18 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] recommendation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you Master Mac, I enjoyed training with you and the arm curls last weekend:) ----- Original Message ----- From: > I know Ms. Kat Kelly responded with: > > At our dojang we teach the Hapkido style of Kong Shin and put > > safety first. We are at located at the corner of Chimney Rock and > > South Braeswood, my instructor is Master Rudy Timmerman. > > She shouldn't be too far to get to and I would also highly recommend her > school as well. I would suggest going by to meet her and see how her > classes are run. > > Good luck in your (and your Aunt's) training. > > Mac > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Michael Falba" To: Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:54:16 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Chayon-Ryu Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello: For my Chayon-Ryu Curriculum the break for 8th gup was a "Running Front Kick" the Break for 4th gup was a "Flying Front Kick". I do not know if the curriculum for all Chayon-Ryu style schools are standardized but that is how it is under the Master with which I train. A newbie to the system could easily mistake a "Running Front Kick" for a "Flying Front Kick" since you do actually loose contact with the ground for both techniques. As previously stated Chayon-Ryu is a very comprehensive way of teaching Korean Martial Arts. If I were to leave the Gulf South and would have to train elsewhere, I could easily join an ITF or a WTF school, or a Hapkido School and fit right in. I train in New Orleans and have never been to Texas to meet Grand Master Kim Soo, but I deeply respect the man and feel lucky that I am able to train in his system. It's a much longer and sometimes harder road to Black Belt level but well worth it...and, it's just the beginning!!! I have had the experience of training with several Chayon-Ryu 4th and 5th Dans, my Master being one of them. Their abilities are exquisite! Mike Falba Cho-Dan, Chayon-Ryu --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Aaron Lassman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:43:48 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: street attack Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Having had worked in the Emergency Medical system as an EMT for more than 12 years, I have been in my fair share of street brawls fighting with drunks, addicts, psychotics, felons, etc. in situations where fighting with them was their and our best hope to protect them from themselves. I learned very quickly that if I lose my temper in a fighting situation, I am always the one that gets hurt. So pre-emptive stike #1-stay calm... usually, those who want to fight you are pretty freaked out already for one reason or other. #2- look for a way out. the best way to end a fight is to not let it start at all. once the fight starts, someone WILL get hurt, injured or killed. #3- try to convince them that what they are about to start is a huge huge mistake. My favorite line is, "I don't think you realize the seriousness of the situation that you have just put yourself in." and go from there. #4- call for back up, if you can. strength in numbers, don't you know. Not always possible or easy, but, if you can, I suggest it. If you are out with a group of buddies, and someone is starting with you and the situation has now reached the event horizon, send one of your buddies for the cops. #5-immobilize your opponent as fast as you can. Kick to the groin, solarplexus, knee, face, every fight i have ever been in has always ended on the ground. Get on top, as quickly as possible and put your opponent in a lock, arm bar, choke hold... till the cops get there. In good health, Aaron Lassman, CMT The Worlds Greatest Massage Therapist "I am not the same having seen the moon shine on the other side of the world" -Mary Anne M.B.L. Radmacher (www.wordshop.com) > > > > I have read from past emails that high kicks are not recommended in a > >street attack. So then, what 5 initial moves and where would you suggest >are > >the first pre emptive strikes against an attacker on the street? > > > >Thanks Rick > >_______________________________________________ > > _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy MSN 8 patented spam control and more with MSN 8 Dial-up Internet Service. Try it FREE for one month! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Johnjfitzg@aol.com Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 20:02:26 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, rterry@idiom.com CC: Johnjfitzg@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] High Kicks do work! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net High Kicks do work! I saw the claims on the DD that high kicks do not work in a "real fight" and they are only for sport. These claims are not correct. I have used high kicks to the head in self-defense situations and found that they ended the fight ("a real fight") very quickly. I first heard this claim in my college's karate club in the early 1970’s. I had several BB friends in Bando, and Okinawa / Japanese karate styles. They were very good BB’s and they trained hard. We enjoyed working out together and sparring with each other. They shared their view with me that high kicks do not work in a "real fight". I pointed out to them that I could score on them with high kicks to the head and that the head kicks seem to catch them by surprise. They responded to me that they did not expect high kicks because they do not train to defend against them. I point out to them that if I could kick them (BB’s) in head just think about how it would work on an unprepared attacker. Unfortunately, I had to put my theory to the test a few times in college when I was attacked outside nightclubs. The attackers in each situation were bigger and stronger than me. Each fight was ended quickly by high kicks to the attacker's head and I walked away without injury. Only in one case did the attacker know that I was a BB and he (a weight lifter and wrestler) was interested in challenge my skills. Just for the record, I did try to resolve the issues peacefully but these guys wanted to prove something to their friends. In my opinion, high kicks to the head are a good self-defense technique for the following reasons: 1. Great Power. In general, one can generate more power with a kick than a hand technique because the average person has significantly greater strength in their legs than in their arms. There are very few power punchers like Mike Tyson, who can knot out a top-notch athlete with one punch. However, I have seen more people in karate and TKD tournaments knot out their opponent by kicks to the head than hand techniques. In the tournaments, all BB’s know about the high kicks, but some of them still knot out their opponents with these kicks. 2. Surprise. I would say that over 90% of the attackers do not expect you to defend with a high kick to the head. They are looking for punches, grabs and maybe a low kick. I believe this surprise is a significant advantage. 3. Greater Reach. Most people have a greater reach with their legs than arms, which put most of the rest of the body out of harms way. Lower Risk of Injury. Most people’s feet can take more pressure than their hands. In other words, I can hit objects hard with my feet without injury than with my hands. In addition, one usually wares shoes, which provide protection to your feet. 4. The Very Strong Man. If your attacker is one of these super strong guys who can bench press over 400 lbs. and squats over 1,000 lbs., you got a person who’s body can take a lot of punishment. My gym has at least half a dozen of these very strong man and I believe they can take many good body shots, but their heads are just like ever one else. For this type of attacker, I would want to go to the head with my strongest technique, which is a kick. So if you are attacked tonight by any real monsters, consider using your high kicks to the head. John --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:10:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean Ryu ?? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > My name is Mike Falba and I am a Cho Dan in Chayon-Ryu. It is what I consider > a very comprehensive system of Korean Martial Arts made up primarily of TKD > and HKD but also includes Chinese Chaun Fa, one and two person forms as well > as several Shotokan Forms. Chayon-Ryu means Natural Way and was developed by > GM Kim Soo. If it is Korean... why is it a Ryu??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Johnjfitzg@aol.com Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 20:10:43 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, rterry@idiom.com CC: Johnjfitzg@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] The term Martial Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Grant and Bruce The term, Martial Arts, does seem misused, but most people know it current meaning. I prefer "fighting systems", but I am not in the marketing field. John --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:16:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] High kicks do work, sometimes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > High Kicks do work! Sounds like you were very lucky. Or you're one of those rare special people that can kick high in jeans, or similar pants, when their muscles are cold. In general, high kicks are not a wise move in a street situation. Limit kicks to the knee, thigh or groin, no higher. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Jason E. Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] 20th International Seminar Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:54:18 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Please send me one: Jason Thomas 1805 Autumn Fire Dr. Cedar Park TX, 78613 If you have it in electronic format you can just e-mail it and save the stamps. Regards, Jason > -----Original Message----- > From: J.R. West [mailto:hapkido@netdoor.com] > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 2:28 PM > To: Dojang Digest; Martial Science > Subject: [The_Dojang] 20th International Seminar > > We have just secured the dates for the 20th International HapKiDo and > Korean > Martial Arts Seminar, which will be held IN IT'S ENTIRETY at the Jackson > Southwest Hotel on March 5th - 7th 2004. I will be sending out info > packets > within the next few weeks, and if anyone would like to receive one, just > send me your mailing address. Thanx for your time.......J.R. West > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest