Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 03:01:50 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #482 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: High Kicks do work, sometimes! (Jye nigma) 2. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Personalities?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 3. Videos (SEXTONR003@hawaii.rr.com) 4. Street Attack (SEXTONR003@hawaii.rr.com) 5. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Chayon-Ryu_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 6. RE: 20th International Seminar (Jeffery Dean Sr.) 7. One strike is enough (Charles Richards) 8. J.R.s Seminar (michael tomlinson) 9. Where are the others? (Chosondo@aol.com) 10. Why is it a "Ryu"? (Khalkee@netscape.net) 11. Re: The term "Martial Art" (Grant D. Watson) 12. Re: Re: Personalities (ncahoots@comcast.net) 13. Cold showers etc. (Rudy Timmerman) 14. Thanks (Rudy Timmerman) 15. Congratulations (Rudy Timmerman) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 10:47:01 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] High Kicks do work, sometimes! To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm with you on this. Let me just say that I'm not saying that you can't kick to someone's head in a real fight. Nor am I saying that you can't knock someone out with a kick to the head in a real fight...what I am saying is that it is not practical to do so in a real fight. There way too many factors to leave yourself open [from the delivery to the hit or miss]. Also remember, to kick to the head, you must lean back at some point and there are exceptions to that rule. So if you lean back and deliver that kick, but the person rushes in, you could be in a world of trouble. But if you're delivering a kick to the waist or lower you can put that leg right back down to regain balance. Also, if delivering a kick to the waist or lower, the distance of travel from you to the target is not as great, and although it's only seconds, every second counts in a real fight because they are usually done in seconds. Everyone is different and what works for me may not work for others. I choose to not kick to the head, or may not even kick at all, because I need to be ready for anything...where I come from people don't fight fair...10 to one is hard to over come, so I look to finished it quickly before their people jump in [if I'm without mine that is]. Jye --- Ray Terry wrote: > I've only been kicking for 30+ years, but I doubt I > can rip my Levi's all > that easily. Esp when my muscles are cold. > > IMHO, it is far easier to block a kick to the head > than it is to block > a kick to the knee or the common peroneal (outer > thigh). So... we kick to > the knee or outer thigh. When they drop to a knee > (or both knees) THEN kick > them in the head. :) > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 15:05:02 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Personalities?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Folks: I'd like to tidy up some loose ends and hope that folks might pitch-in where they have information. Can anyone give me information on the following personalities? 1.) Gary Pointer referenced Song, Ki Yong in his posting last February. Who is identified or documented as Ki Yong Songs' teacher and what style does he practice? Does he have any notable students? 2.) Choi Yong Sul is reported to have kept Jang Chung Kwan in Seoul and at his death in 1986 had named his son, Choi Bok Yuel as his successor in 1985. This 2nd "dojunim" died in 1987. Apparently Kim Yun Sang is the #3 DJN as designated by family members. This information was taken from postings on AIKIDO JOURNAL authored by Shin Hoon, a student of Kim Yun Sang. Shin Hoon indicates that his teachrs' teacher was Choi but other material suggests Suh, Bok Sub. Who is identified or documented as his teacher and what style does he practice? Does he have any notable students? #3.) Apparently Chang Chin Il identified as a possible successor to Choi perhaps even designated by Choi himself. This information was taken from various sources. Has anyone any firm background in the individual above his teaching in Long Island at present? Who is identified or documented as his teacher and what style does he practice? Does he have any notable students? 4.) GM Rim continues to pop up from time to time as a successor to Choi. Most notably he came up in Tedeschis' book. I think tedeschi indicates that his teachrs' teacher was Choi but other material suggests Suh, Bok Sub. Who is identified or documented as his teacher and what style does he practice? Does he have any notable students? 5.) Last point--- everyone want to be associated with Choi Yong Sul, but most of the documented stories I run into seem to attribute many individuals to training by Suh, Bok Sub who was apparently Chois first student. How come this guy doesn't get more recognition in anecdotal reports? BTW: Anybody want to play a little game? Does anyone know who holds the record for training directly with Choi Yong Sul for the longest number of years? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: To: Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 20:53:31 -1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Videos Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> I've seen a few minutes of Combat HKD...didn't hang around to see more. Also received Scott Shaw's HKD tapes for Christmas one year. Just not up to par. Haven't seen Hackworth's tapes. Randall Sexton www.SextonsHapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: To: Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 21:00:00 -1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Street Attack Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Move # 1. Flip the safety off. RE: High Kicks In the healthcare field I've seen people take gunshots, crowbars, 2x4's to the head and not go down. So I train to catch those high kicks and to bust knees. Even if you can kick someone in the head in .5 seconds, how much less time does it take to go less distance? Randall Sexton www.SextonsHapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 07:15:23 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Chayon-Ryu_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mike: "......I chose Chayon-Ryu to be the curriculum under which I practice. It works for me, I absolutely love it. You chose what you did and I respect that as well....." You also did a great job answering my questions! Thanks for the tip on the website. I'll take a look a bit later. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Jeffery Dean Sr." To: Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 08:29:27 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: 20th International Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net GM West, I am already making plans to attend. I enjoy so much the great atmosphere that you and your people create for these seminars. Tang Soo Jeffery Dean, Sr. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.534 / Virus Database: 329 - Release Date: 10/31/2003 --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 07:16:30 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] One strike is enough Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> To all martial artist: I have read from past emails that high kicks are not recommended in a street attack. So then, what 5 initial moves and where would you suggest are the first pre emptive strikes against an attacker on the street? <> Dear Rick Try List member Alain Burrese's "Hard-Won Wisdom" ISBN 0-595-17422-1 I got my autographed copy at one of the famous Jackson homecomings :-) I'm partial to what Sifu Lee would call "stop-hits" The lead hand jab (or backfist), and the lead leg "low-side kick"/rythym disruption. As far as pre-emptive strikes, I'd say be careful with the law and striking first. Of course, I can see a situation where it would be better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. So then, pick a technique that leaves you uncompromissed in terms of balance, generates a lot of power, most likely strikes a vital/pain compliance point. Something that "takes out" the aggressor. Sounds like a low kick to any of the many targets bellow and including the floating ribs and kidney :-) Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 16:05:11 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] J.R.s Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I've never been able to make it to Jackson for the big shin-dig but this time it looks like the stars have aligned themselves for me and for once I'm gonna be able to make it up there.. looking forward to working out and finally meeting all of you in Jackson... I will definately be there this year... Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Never get a busy signal because you are always connected with high-speed Internet access. Click here to comparison-shop providers. https://broadband.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 11:35:49 -0500 From: Chosondo@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Where are the others? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Someone asked, where are the others? I believe that this question was asked with respect to positive role models KMA. Even though GM Timmerman and I have had our philosophical differences, I totally agree with the comments made about him. That goes for GM West as well. But, it's as if folks like GMs Michael DeAlba, Serge Baubil, and at the risk of tooting my own horn, me, don't exist. The individuals I mentioned are quality martial artists as well. I can think of many others, but this would suffice to underscore my point. I am not offended by this in the least because there are certainly more important things in life to deal with, but it seems to me, that if we are going to talk about positive role models, we need all the help we can get. Epecially in these (tentative) times.... Now I admit, I don't spend a lot of time on this list. This is probably because I rarely have the time to spend responding to stuff on this list, but do enough that some folks on here know me. Further, I have often extended invitations to members of this list to share the mat with me. No one has ever accepted my invitation. It makes me wonder..... So, that being said, GM Ji Han Jae and myself will be conducting a Hapkido seminar in the Chicago area during the weekend of April 30 - May 2, 2004. I extend an invitation to all on this list to participate. More info regarding venue etc is forthcoming. I offer a word of caution, "if all you know is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail". Thank you for indulging me. Ian A. Cyrus, Headmaster ICF --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 13:10:19 -0500 From: Khalkee@netscape.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Why is it a "Ryu"? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net What's the interpretation of "ryu"? If you think that it's a purely Japanese term, then check out the old names of Kogu-Ryu and Manchu-Ryu ... Manchuria (Mongolia) and Korea, eh? __________________________________________________________________ McAfee VirusScan Online from the Netscape Network. Comprehensive protection for your entire computer. Get your free trial today! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/computing/mcafee/index.jsp?promo=393397 Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 free of charge. Download Now! http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455 --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 15:49:12 -0800 (PST) From: "Grant D. Watson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The term "Martial Art" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > I can't fault your logic one bit. Where I get > confounded is that just > about every notable personality and style seem to > work so very hard to > draw a connection with some military heritage. GM > Lee for years drew > connections with the Hwa Rang warriors, and it was > popular lore for many > TKD traditions that warriors of the Three Kingdoms > period used TKD on the > battlefield though under the moniker of "soo bahk". > Okinawa-te has its > share of MA mythes which include Okinawan farmers > beating seasoned > Japanese warriors with nunchuka and their bare > fists. Hmmm... I don't know much about Asian culture, but my first impression is that the goal of these "histories" is to integrate the art's past into some glorious national past, and the easiest way to do this with a fighting art is the military connection? There's of course also the element that association with a military grants some credibility to one's claims of combat/fighting effectiveness (though given some servicemen's comments about some of the many fighting systems the U.S. military has gone through, this is not _necessarily_ the case). > And not a few > Okinawan personalities are recognized as individuals > of standing in the > palace as body guards or precinct police. Is military/police application of an art the same as a military heritage? I don't think so, at least not at first glance. Hapkido, Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do and what have you were all taught to soldiers under the banner of the Oh-Do Kwan, but I'm not sure that this gives a military heritage to any of those arts, except insofar as the arts were influenced by this experience. (That brings up an interesting historical question: Were they? Maj. Gen. Choi's TKD certainly was under development during this time, but was it influenced by the military application, or was the military application irrelevent to the development of the art? Was HKD influenced at all?) > Here on DD > folks infrequently > mention military training and quite recently there > was the discussion of > the new fighting system in the US Marines. All of > this said to show that I > recognize that there is some connection (real or > imagined) between what we > practice and its serious application. Certainly -- but if all U.S. servicemen were required to learn, say, Aikido, would that make Aikido a military art, per se? Also, not all practical applications of a martial art are military -- personal self-defense, or what have you, strikes me as equally practical, though of course different. > But, as you > say, lets think that a > military background is not a necessary requirement. > How do we then justify > the use of the term "martial". Past use? Actually, I would be curious to learn when the term "martial art" came to have its present meaning. > Would "civilian art" be just as appropriate as these > arts are practiced > predominantly by civilians. Wouldn't pottery be a "civilian art"? It's too imprecise, not to mention unclear. > Would "combat art" be appropriate, even in a sport > application? Closer -- how about fighting art? That's more precise, though it might be broader than our use of "martial art." "Asian fighting art" might be more appropriate in some circumstances. > Would "pugilism" be appropriate even if some arts > such as Hapkido and Yudo > are mostly throws and submission. > > Would "warrior arts" be appropriate even if some > instructors only teach > the physical aspect and do not strive to imbue their > students with a > particular code? This carries a lot of baggage in practical use of the term, such as differing definitions of warrior. In the most literal sense, isn't a warrior someone who participates in war? -- and doesn't that get us back to martial? > Can an activity purposely gelded by removing > particularly deveastating > techniques continue to be called a "martial art"? (I > direct anyone who is > curious about this last question to pick-up a copy > of AIKIDO TODAY > magazine and consider the attitudes for the > editorial staff.) Since it will be a while before I get a chance to see a copy, what is their opinion? I (see above) consider Aikido to be a martial art, though it clearly has a non-martial focus. > To my mind, Grant, we come down to a simple > question. What is it that we > are doing that allows us to continue to use the term > "martial" in what we > are doing? I think people understand what we mean when we use the term, which is the best reason to continue to use it. The next clearer one, IMHO, is "Asian fighting art" (especially since "fighting" has many of the sport v. deadly ambiguities that are useful in this case), but I really don't see a problem with "martial art," since its meaning is clear to most people, including non-MAists. Whoever coined the term (who did?) may not have been justified in doing so, but now that its meaining is established, we're justified in using it. (I think that this is the point John was making.) ===== Grant D. Watson, __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ --__--__-- Message: 12 From: ncahoots@comcast.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 23:07:25 -0500 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Personalities Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Bruce: As a student of GM Rim, It is my understanding that he was a direct student, as well as a close friend of Grandmaster Choi. Master Rim started training in Hapkido in 1964 and by 1973, he was a sixth degree black belt and an instructor at Grandmaster Choi's dojang. In 1978 Master Rim came to the United States. At first, Master Rim taught Hapkido at his home. Years later, in the mid eighties, he began teaching at the Baltimore Judo Club, which has become the Bonbu Dojang of Rim™s Hapkido. When Grandmaster Choi, Yong Sul visited the United States in June of 1982 with the purpose of unifying Hapkido, Master Rim attended the meeting which was to address the need for a successor. After the meeting in New York, GM Choi visited in Maryland and worked out in the dojang with GM Rim and his students. Being pleased to see his traditional method of instruction preserved, GM Choi presented Mr. Rim with a handwritten personnal certificate of endorsement attesting to GM. Rim's mastery of Hapkido, and his personal chop, the chop of the original Hapkido organization. Having been a student there for going on three years only, my knowledge is more limited than some of the more senior students. I know that Amed Hazel, subscribes to DD, so hopefully he can add more to what I have related. Chuck Callahan Rim Hapkido Baltimore School www.RimsHapkido.org --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 23:19:54 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Cold showers etc. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Donna writes: > If anyone want to prepare for that dip in Lake Huron, cold showers > don't > help. Rudy! Snowballs if ya got em! Hello Dona: Not according to a certain gentleman from FL:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 23:29:29 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Thanks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Geez guys, you are ruining my reputation as an all around bad boy. Thanks David, Randall and Mac. Hope you all save some time to share in the Canadian cold medicine (also known as snakebite medicine in other parts of the country) when we get together in Jackson. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 23:34:07 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Congratulations Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I would like to congratulate Master Thomas Gordon on the Grand Opening of his new school. Best wishes my friend. Sincerely, Rudy W. Timmerman, Chief Master National Korean Martial Arts Association --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest