Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 12:49:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #483 - 18 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Too fast (Ray Terry) 2. Mr. Hackworth on the mat (FirstPe315@aol.com) 3. RE: Congratulations (Thomas Gordon) 4. Mr. Cyrus (michael tomlinson) 5. Re: Kicks to the head (K. Barends) 6. Choi Young Sul (Dave Wilson) 7. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_This_could_be_a_busy_Spring!!!!_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 8. Re: Why is it a "Ryu"? (Ray Terry) 9. Original organization ? (Ray Terry) 10. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_The_term_"martial_art"_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 11. Hapkido Black Belts (Johnjfitzg@aol.com) 12. Re: Hapkido Black Belts (Johnjfitzg@aol.com) 13. North American Open (Carole) 14. Re: Hapkido Black Belts (John Johnson) 15. Re: High kicks (ABurrese@aol.com) 16. Personalities (International Hapkido USA) 17. Training with Choi (Todd Miller) 18. KHF becomes WHF? (International Hapkido USA) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 21:10:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Too fast Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > as a close friend of Grandmaster Choi. Master Rim started training in Hapkido > in 1964 and by 1973, he was a sixth degree black belt and an instructor at > Grandmaster Choi's dojang. >From 1st Dan to 6th Dan in only 9 years?!? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: FirstPe315@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 01:14:08 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Mr. Hackworth on the mat Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 10/31/2003 1:17:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Jeremy- No. I think he spent a lot of his time with twin cell-phones trying to track down his guests in his defense. He did get on the mat late Saturday and milled around and helped out a few people along with the Technical Director, Master Choe. I think he may have honestly been trying to help out because there were some disappointed people there. Would have loved to have done Hoshinsool with him but he basically did not. Jeff > Jeff, > > Did Mr. H actually get on the mat and practice with > everyone? > > Jeremy --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Congratulations Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 00:19:01 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net CKJN Timmerman, Thank you for the well wishes. I wrote the business plan for this school in March 1996. A five year test program in a neighboring community, several thousand dollars, and 7.5 years later and it's a reality. Feels great to be back in my home town! One of the instructors and I intend to see you in Jackson, MS. Sincerely, Thomas Gordon Florida -----Original Message----- From: Rudy Timmerman [mailto:kwanjang@sympatico.ca] Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 10:34 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Congratulations I would like to congratulate Master Thomas Gordon on the Grand Opening of his new school. Best wishes my friend. Sincerely, Rudy W. Timmerman, Chief Master National Korean Martial Arts Association _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 13:00:22 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Mr. Cyrus Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I noticed you posted that you and Doju Nim Ji will be conducting a Hapkido seminar in Chicago. A couple of questions. One, is this strictly a Sin Moo Hapkido seminar? Two, are you teaching Sin Moo Hapkido yourself? Thanks for your time. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Concerned that messages may bounce because your Hotmail account has exceeded its 2MB storage limit? Get Hotmail Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "K. Barends" Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 14:04:58 +0100 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Kicks to the head Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Everyone is different and what works > for me may not work for others. I choose to not kick > to the head, or may not even kick at all, because I > need to be ready for anything. But is this also a reason not to practice high kicks? If you can kick high fast, you can kick low very fast. My guess would be that you strengthen your legs more when practicing high kicks, and thus your lowkicks become better. -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Dave Wilson" To: Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 07:46:04 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Choi Young Sul Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net 2.) Choi Yong Sul is reported to have kept Jang Chung Kwan in Seoul and at his death in 1986 had named his son, Choi Bok Yuel as his successor in 1985. This 2nd "dojunim" died in 1987. Apparently Kim Yun Sang is the #3 DJN as designated by family members. This information was taken from postings on AIKIDO JOURNAL authored by Shin Hoon, a student of Kim Yun Sang. Shin Hoon indicates that his teachrs' teacher was Choi but other material suggests Suh, Bok Sub. Who is identified or documented as his teacher and what style does he practice? Does he have any notable students? Can't tell you much because, well, I just don't know. However my Hapkido Instructor www.masterYang.com received his first thru fourth dahn from Choi Young Sul. He trained with Kim Yun San since Choi was very elderly. G.M. Yang has many stories from about things Choi emphasized etc... (he said even as an old man Choi's locks were extremely painful) Here's a link to the original Dojan's site. http://www.hapkiyusul.com They pride themselves on having the original curriculum. G.M. Yang says that 95 % of our classes are exactly like the Classes he had in Korea. I've also experienced Sin Moo Hapkido classes and I noticed there is a distinct difference. Dave --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:08:43 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_This_could_be_a_busy_Spring!!!!_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Folks: Just a word.... Seems like things are being organized for next March, April and May. So far I have JR-s International the beginning of March and a seminar with GM Ji at the end of April. We MAY have a seminar with GM Myung in Chicago in April but its still in the planning stages. If anyone else has things going on now would be the time to say something. I think most people have only so many training dollars for travel. I am already working out the details for the International, and attending the seminar here in Chicago would be a no-brainer for me. All the same, we have seen what "bad" looks like in these last couple of weeks. If people are really concerned with the direction that the Hapkido arts are going this is probably the best way to "vote" our position. Lets support activites we can be proud of any way we can. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Why is it a "Ryu"? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 07:21:09 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > What's the interpretation of "ryu"? If you think that it's a purely > Japanese term, then check out the old names of Kogu-Ryu and Manchu-Ryu ... > Manchuria (Mongolia) and Korea, eh? Kogu-ryu or Koga-ryu (Ninjutsu) or Koguryu? Not sure that Koguryu [Koguryu kingdom (37 BC to 66 AD)] is the same the Ryu of Kogu... is it? Manchu-Ryu.?. don't find anything on that. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 07:27:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Original organization ? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > certificate of endorsement attesting to GM. Rim's mastery of Hapkido, and his > personal chop, the chop of the original Hapkido organization. Original Hapkido organization.?.?. would that be Choi Yong-sul's Hapkiyusool organization? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:33:00 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_The_term_"martial_art"_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Grant: "....Whoever coined the term (who did?) may not have been justified in doing so, but now that its meaining is established, we're justified in using it. (I think that this is the point John was making.)...." I think you may be right. I'm wondering if this is a mess that may need to be cleaned-up in the near futher, though. What I see is the use of the term "martial" to justify instruction in combative arts. I have no problem with this. However, to me, martial training also includes the teaching of a code of some sort which provides guidance for the use of such combat instruction. I often draw a parallel between this subject and the modern day "rules of engagement" of our fighting forces. In many discussions there are always veiled references to such things as "deadly situations" or "if I HAVE to". But I can't believe that the preponderance of practitioners are ever in fear for their lives, wandering backstreets from red-neck bar to red-neck bar at the wee hours of the morning. And if these are the folks for which "martial arts" are intended what does that say about others who don't share this life-style? Certainly there are people in the military who train in fighting arts, but again, compared to the overall population of KMA practitioners how many are in the military and will find themselves in life-threatening situations? I wonder if the use of the term "martial" has been invoked to lend an atmosphere of military lethality to what we do so as to heighten the power and prestige of our training beyond what it normally would deserve. Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Johnjfitzg@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 11:23:53 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, rterry@idiom.com CC: Johnjfitzg@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Black Belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hapkido Black Belts I have been on the DD for less than a year. During this short time, I have noticed that Hapkido Black Belts can get promoted very quickly. There is the KHF representative ("US Director") in Florida who apparently went from 4th Dan to GM within a few years based on some prior DD postings. I just reviewed GM Rim’s web site and he went from 1st Dan to 6th Dan in 6 years. His web site states: "Mr. Rim started training in Hapkido in 1964... Mr. Rim received his black belt in approximately three years. By 1973, Mr. Rim was a sixth degree black belt and the chief instructor at Mr. Choi's dojang." (Based on GM Rim’s pictures, it appears that he can also stop a sword attack to the head with his bear hands. This is very impressive. ) I assume these big guys are good MA’s and they were promoted as they stated. MY questions are as follows: How many levels of BB Dan are in HapKido? (10, 20,30, etc.?) Are there any age requirements for BB Dan? I assume there are minimum skills requirements for promotion to BB 1st Dan in Hapkido. Are higher-level Dan promotions based more on good politics, friendships, money, etc.? Does one normally test for the higher Dan promotion? If not, what level do the promotion test stop? Please do not feel like I am picking on Hapkido, I know some of the other different MA styles probably have examples like the two above. I also know Hapkido is an excellent KMA. Thanks John --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Johnjfitzg@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 11:36:32 EST To: Johnjfitzg@aol.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, rterry@idiom.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Hapkido Black Belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sorry, bear should have been bare in my prior email. My typing and proofing skills are white belt level. Cheers John --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Carole" To: Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:40:03 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] North American Open Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The North American Open that is on Nov 8th, 2003 in Las Vegas, can you tell me where in Las Vegas it is at? Thanks Carole --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "John Johnson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Black Belts Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 17:57:55 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >How many levels of BB Dan are in HapKido? (10, 20,30, etc.?) >Are there any age requirements for BB Dan? Go to www.hapkidokorea.org and see the time requirements for each dan level in the Korea Hapkido Federation. John A. Johnson III, Taekwondo (Independent) III, Korea Hapkido Federation _________________________________________________________________ Send instant messages to anyone on your contact list with MSN Messenger 6.0. Try it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 14:23:31 -0500 From: ABurrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: High kicks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I written about high kicking before, but here are a couple things to think about regarding the topic. First, I know high kicks can work in a real fight, someone on this list has posted that he has used them, and I have seen them work first hand. However, I still teach and recommend that you do not kick high in real fights for a number of reasons, including: 1. As previously posted, clothing and being cold can make it more difficult to kick high, thus making what is easier for you to do in the training hall, more difficult on the street, and therefore being a riskier technique. 2. The higher your foot is off the ground, the more likely you can lose your balance and end up on the ground yourself. This can happen a variety of ways, one of which is having your leg grabbed. Higher it is, the easier it is to block and or grab at times. Again, nothing is certain, just going with the odds. With your leg high off the ground, you also present different targets for your opponent that are not there with your feet on the ground. 3. High kicks take much more skill and training. This is more of a reason I don’t teach them in Streetfighting Essentials and Attack Back seminars and products. You can learn low effective kicks much easier than high kicks. Because low kicks are safer to execute as in being less risky to you, easier to learn, and take less time to become proficient in, as well as being easier to execute under high stress, they are better to teach those not learning a martial art, but learning street defense. I am not against high kicks if you study an art that includes them, and you spend the time needed to become proficient in them to use in an actual encounter. They can be used. However, you can learn low kicks and other street techniques such as I teach in Streetfighting Essentials and Attack Back more quickly and become proficient in their use more quickly than you can the high kicks. That and the fact that some people, due to certain physical limitations, will never be able to achieve the effectiveness with their high kicks to pull them off in a real fight, low kicks are what I recommend for actual combat. The most bang for your training buck when it comes to real fights are the simple, effective basics. The more complicated techniques are fun to learn, and will work once you have spent the time to become proficient in their use. (and that can take some time) And even then, the experienced martial artist and fighter will often resort back to those simple basics when a fight occurs. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 16 From: "International Hapkido USA" To: Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:19:55 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Personalities Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net OK Bruce, I'll bite - at some anyway... 1.) No idea 2.) Kim Yun Sang was first taught by Ji Han Jae ( from whom he got a fifth dan). He even admits this on his web site. Kim later met Choi Yong Sul in 1973 and began to train with him then. He was awarded a ninth dan in 1984. His "doju" certificate was actually issued by the widow of Choi Bok Yuel in 2002. Not sure how that happened...don't see the connection there at all. Kim Yun Sang has gained several international students in the last several years and has even begun to travel abroad from Korea for seminars. He teaches Yong Sul Kwon Hapkiyusul. 3.) Doju Chang ChinIl was made the second Doju directly from Choi Yong Sul on January 15, 1985. This was first reported in Taekwondo Times in 1986. This was later confirmed to me by the only westerner to train in Korea with Choi, Grandmaster Mike Wollmershauser in April, 1987. I had a rare opportunity to me with Doju Chang in March 2003 for about 5.5 hours in Massachusetts. I saw the documentation of the appointment myself and a copy of the huge certificate. The ceremony was broadcast on Korean Television (KNBC) in 1985. Doju Chang trains daily and teaches twice per week at a multiuse facility in New York. He is very particular as to who he will allow to be his students - I am unaware of any that have reached high levels. His teacher was Choi Yong Sul. I have seen the documentation of his various dan ranks where Choi himself presented them. He teaches Hapkido. A few side notes about this experience: Doju Chang has founded two new martial arts, one that is centered around bladed weapons. Also, his personal training must be extreme, his hands have a callous in the area on the heel of the palm, mainly where sudo's would strike that is about an inch thick. In 25 years in MA, I have NEVER seen anything like this. 4.) Grandmaster Rim was ranked to 7th Dan by Choi Yong Sul. I have no direct knowledge if he was taught by Suh, Bok Sub, but have made enquiries to those who do know. I will fill in this gap when I have it. 5.) There are a great many Hapkido instructors that were taught by others and later went to train with Choi Yong Sul. A comprehensive list is currently in the works. As to the most senior of all Hapkido people, Suh, Bok Sub, you are correct, he is the very first student and therefore senior to all of us - I am gathering more information on him now through sources that know him very well. More to follow. The longest running student of Choi Yong Sul is, without doubt, Grandmaster Lim Hyun Soo of Taegue (?) City. He trained with Choi Yong Sul for 22 years. In fact, from 1976 until his death, Choi Yong Sul taught at Lim Hyun Soo's dojang, the Jung Ki Kwan ("Original School"). Grandmaster Lim was given a 9th Dan by Choi. He teaches Hapkido. He is also one of Korea's most respected sword masters. Only three men received 9th Dan from Choi, Yong Sul: Doju Chang ChinIl; Lim Hyun Soo; Kim Yun Sang. Only one, Doju Chang, received a tenth dan directly from Choi. I will be the first to admit that solid, independent proof of what I just said is hard to come by - so I make these statements based on either my personal experience with the documentation or on the words of those I trust. Still, getting independent copies of some of this stuff will be great - working on it. Sincerely, Kevin SogorGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 17 Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 16:22:15 -0500 From: Todd Miller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Training with Choi Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Does anyone know who holds the record for training directly with Choi Yong > Sul for the longest number of years? That would be Grandmaster Lim, Hyun Soo, Headmaster of the Jungki Kwan. There is only one Doju Nim and that would be Choi, Yong Sool. No other person no matter what there proclaimed rank should use this title! Hapki Todd Miller --__--__-- Message: 18 From: "International Hapkido USA" To: Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:29:13 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] KHF becomes WHF? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello all, I just saw in the most recent Black Belt Magazine (December, 2003, pp.106) that on December 6, 2003 the Korea Hapkido Federation will announce the formation of the World Hapkido Federation to promote Hapkido worldwide. Am I wrong or does such a thing already exist??? (In California, no less)... For the record, I was wrong when I said that on 45 had shown up for day one of the Florida seminar - it was about 60. According to my source at the event, the number dropped to 45 the second day and 30 the third. Sincerely, Kevin Sogor Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest