Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 05:34:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #485 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. KHF Dan Requirements (John Johnson) 2. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Hapkido_Black_Belts?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 3. Hapkiyusul (Barrie Restall) 4. Seminar Schedules (Rudy Timmerman) 5. Taekwondo Times subscription (John-Lewis Lewis) 6. Use of the Term Doju (nim) (Michael Rowe) 7. quick rank (michael tomlinson) 8. Re: Dan ranks (K. Barends) 9. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Chicago_Ji_Seminar_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 10. RE: Honor (Farral, Kim) 11. USOC to the USTU (Ray Terry) 12. Union declines USOC (Ray Terry) 13. Re: quick rank (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "John Johnson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 05:26:11 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] KHF Dan Requirements Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I assume there are minimum skills requirements for promotion to BB 1st Dan in Hapkido. Are higher-level Dan promotions based more on good politics, friendships, money, etc.? Quality of technique, time in rank, etc. As unusual as this might sound, after one tests for their third dan in the Korea Hapkido Federation, the only requirements for advancement is attandence to the annual master's training seminar and training time in rank. (I'm unsure of the cost of each promotion since I've only tested for my third degree.) I've heard some organizations do this for fifth dan and up, but I was still taken back a bit by not having to test after third dan. As for overseas instructors, since they are usually not here in Korea to attend the Master's Seminar, a promise that they will attend the 3-day event is all that is required. John A. Johnson III, Independent (Taekwondo) III, Korea Hapkido Federation _________________________________________________________________ MSN Messenger with backgrounds, emoticons and more. http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/cdp_customize --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:20:00 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Hapkido_Black_Belts?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear John: "........I assume there are minimum skills requirements for promotion to BB 1st Dan in Hapkido. Are higher-level Dan promotions based more on good politics, friendships, money, etc.? Does one normally test for the higher Dan promotion? If not, what level do the promotion test stop?....." You're right, of course. There ARE criteria. However there is no way to get folks to honor those criteria or to stop circumventing the criteria through grand-fathered rank, politics, honorary titles, or administrative postings. There is also no way to get people who trade in such paper- chases to admit to what they have done. I can only state that in my own case there is a criteria and I plan to honor it and to do so a visually as I can so that people behind me can see how it can be done. Next year I will be eligible to test for fourth dan. I am 53. If I pass, my next period for time in grade will be 6 years which means I will be eligible to test for 5th dan in 2010. I will be 60 for that test. My next test will be 2017 and I will be 67 for my 6th dan. After that I could give a happy G-D. I get a lot of flack for grandstanding about this sometimes, but the alternative is to have folks such as yourself point out the obvious abuses when people don't make a stand. Not everybody who trains in Hapkido is particularly proud of whats happened these last few months. And I won't pretend that there are more than a few who pretty much LIKE things the way you mentioned--- big-time recognition for little or no real training effort. The trick, as I see it, is for the folks with sound values to make sure they get noticed now and again so people can see there is an alternative to the clowns among us. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 17:30:06 +1000 From: Barrie Restall To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkiyusul Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Bruce, Here is some information on DJ Kim Yun Sang. He began training with DJ Choi Yung Sul on 26 December 1973 until Choi's death. His previous martial art experience included Tang Su Do, boxing, Kom Do, and 10 yrs of hapkido. His Hapkido certificates are signed by GM Ji Han Jae but his teacher was Chang Kae Do. He received the DJ certificate from Choi's son's widow as another correspondent has said. He has all of Dj Choi's records of his students and their gradings and can check training claims. At Dj Choi's request he recorded the curriculum that Dj Choi taught. His students are notable in so far as quite senior and experienced hapkido people cannot move them! However they are not well known. His system requires daily training, and some older students have stopped training. His current students include one 5th Dan, one 4th Dan and some lower ranks. His classes are not big and he is particular about who he accepts. He has visited a number of Asian countries but his recent visit to Australia was his first to a western country. He came to Australia because he was invited and he wanted to visit a sick friend. The art he teaches is different to "mainline" Hapkido, which makes one wonder if Choi taught all his students the same thing, or if they understood what he was teaching. Many of the 'notables' of hapkido did not train with him long enough to have mastered the system that Dj Kim Yun Sang demonstrates so well. Few martial artists can execute the stuff he does. He maintains that daily training of Dj Choi's curriculum will result in anyone being able to do what he does. I think very few get there because the training is so demanding. The fact that we now know that Dj Choi Yung Sul had a sophisticated and complex teaching curriculum raises some interesting questions for the historians. With kind regards Barrie Restall (Goatman) --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 02:41:20 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Seminar Schedules Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > If anyone else has things going on, now would be the time to say > something. Hello Bruce:; I am finalizing my schedule for next year by the middle of this month, and I'll be happy to share it with the folks on DD. BTW, I just received GM DeAlba's schedule, and it looks like he will be a very busy man indeed. Way to go! Rudy --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "John-Lewis Lewis" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 09:23:43 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Taekwondo Times subscription Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi all, I'm from Spain and I want to subscribe to Taekwondo Times magazine. I have send several e-mails asking to subscribe but I get no answer. Anybody knows if TaekwondoTimes is still active or if they have changed the e-mail address? I have taken the e-mail address from the website. Thanks, John Lewis. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 06:56:10 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Use of the Term Doju (nim) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael Rowe If at first you succeed, try to hide your astonishment! mp_rowe@cox.net <> Negative! The term Doju is the Korean, and I might add it seems a recent use, of the Japanese Doshu. Doshu and Doju mean "Keeper of the Way" and is the title given to the rightful successor of a founder. In Aikido the Doshu Lineage is as follows: Morihei Ueshiba (1883 - 1969) Kisshomaru Ueshiba (1921 - 1999) Moriteru Ueshiba (1951 - ) Thank you for you time Michael Rowe mp_rowe@cox.net --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 13:03:20 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] quick rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Unfortunately these days it seems like the quick ranking happens in every martial art. I have to admit that no matter what Hapkido organization I've been associated with (with the exception of Master Harold Whalen) I have seen people promoted quickly without the proper time in rank. I don't condone this practice or do I participate in it but what can I do? I have seen it in the WHF, the AHA, the KHA and unfortunately in the SMHKD org. It makes me just shake my head and smile. All these 30 year old 6th, 7th and 8th dans? I choose to keep my plate clean and just do my Hapkido. When I was teaching Hapkido at a certain Korean national's dojang a few years ago we would constantly have young Korean masters come over from Seoul that had just graduated from a two year "martial arts" university with a 4th dan in Hapkido, TKD, and Yudo... these guys were all great kickers and acrobats but didn't understand squat about joint locks and throwing,, we would work out and when I would tell them that I was also a 4th dan and had been doing Hapkido since 1988 they would look at me like they didn't understand why I was ONLY a 4th dan! I guess in the long run it is just paper to satisfy your ego,, what else could it be? When someone tells an unsuspecting person that isn't involved that deeply in the martial arts I guess telling them you are a 6th, 7th, or 8th dan must seem to really impress them,, and in turn satifies the false ego. Whatever happened to just training? I remember back in the early 70's that people I was around NEVER cared about rank,, but today it is a big commodity.... Dudes I'm just gonna train and let the chips fall where they will... if YOU have some advanced ranking that you don't deserve then deep down in your soul you know it is wrong and it will come out someday, life has a way of balancing everyone out in the long run... My two cents... Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Crave some Miles Davis or Grateful Dead? Your old favorites are always playing on MSN Radio Plus. Trial month free! http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "K. Barends" Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:04:09 +0100 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Dan ranks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > BTW I saw the post on 1-5th dan in 9 years. I went from 4th-5th dan in > 9 > years! Must have been doing something wrong then ;-) -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:03:26 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Chicago_Ji_Seminar_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Michael: ".....I noticed you posted that you and Doju Nim Ji will be conducting a Hapkido seminar in Chicago. A couple of questions. One, is this strictly a Sin Moo Hapkido seminar? Two, are you teaching Sin Moo Hapkido yourself? Thanks for your time....." I'd like to dovetail on what you are saying, but I don't want Ian to necessarily play fortune-teller. I just have memories of how GM Seo bowed- out of THE GATHERING a while back in Chicago. I think what I would need to know is how much mat time could one expect from GM Ji at this event. For example, Ray posted an announcement of a Ji Seminar in Chico, Calif, and included a run-down of a timeline and agenda. I'm wondering if Ian has detailed info of this sort that he could publish. Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 08:26:47 -0500 From: "Farral, Kim" To: "Dojang" Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Honor Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Pil Seung... Here is my humble opinion and explanation of Honor...not Definition as I don't believe Honor is something which is simply defined...It is much more than that... Honor includes proper ethics, a strong sense of right, high moral standards, respect for others, the ability to lead as well as follow, take orders as well as give them, understanding, compassion, a commitment to ones self, to ones lesser, ones superiors, and ones, duty...most importantly a commitment to the betterment of all...which I cannot stress enough... Honor is a state of being that brings about admiration and respect from those that are within your realm of influence...It is a state of being where being your best is the ultimate goal without drawing obvious attention to yourself...in other words...without arrogance, showmanship, self-indulgence, etc...It is a state of being where one continually strives to improve with pride...not pride in ones self...but pride in the task of achievement for the right and proper cause as well as being part of something much larger than ones self...it is a state whereby you are looked upon with admiration and respect yet humble yourself to those in admiration of your skills and achievements... "To Serve With Honor"...to train, practice, strive to be better each day...fulfill your commitments...fulfill your duties...not for the purpose of self-indulgence and self-gratification...but for of the betterment of all... The best example I am able to provide which will demonstrate Serving with Honor and how one is seen as an Honorable person and what it takes to truly have Honor is to suggest you read the following book; "Silent Warrior" by Charles Henderson...this true, factual story is the best example of Honor I can offer... Each individual will have heir own idea/opinion as to what Honor truly is and how it is best displayed...I have given you mine... Serve With Honor...Not for yourself, but for all...Be Honorable...and Be Humble... Pil Seung!!! ************************************ This email and any files transmitted with it are proprietary and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT Industries, Inc. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. ITT Industries accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email. ************************************ --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 06:16:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] USOC to the USTU Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Letter from USOC to the USTU USTU Compliance with the USOC U.S. Olympic Committee 8/22/2003 Bruce Harris Executive Director U.S. Taekwondo Union One Olympic Plaza Colorado Springs, CO 80909 Re: USOC Membership and Credentials Committee Member Compliance Review Dear Bruce: As you are aware the USOC Membership & Credentials Committee (the Committee) has been conducting a review of U.S. Taekwondo Unions (USTU) compliance with the requirements for membership as an Olympic Sport Organization and for recognition as a National Governing Body (NGB). As part of the review process, the Committee reviewed the compliance form submitted by USTU, the Committee met with USTU o-n two occasions, the Committee made written inquiries of USTU to which USTU responded, the Committee held a public forum for individuals who were interested in the sport of Taekwondo to present their observations and comments o-n the governance of Taekwondo, and the Committee requested that the USOC Audit Division conduct an audit of USTUs financial records. As a result of the Committees review, it has become evident to the Committee that serious problems exist with USTU. These problems are numerous, but result from 1) USTUs governance structure, 2) USTUs inability to effectively manage its sport, including the inability to plan and execute its obligations as an NGB, and 3) USTUs failure to operate in a fiscally sound manner with financial controls and accountability, including the failure to devise a budget and execute a plan to ensure its financial wellbeing. The following are examples of some of these problems. 1. A governance system that is based on club membership and control of state organizations, which results in continual disputes between USTU and its membership. 2. Presidential control of appointments to the Board of Directors. 3. A Board of Directors that is too large and divisive to effectively oversee the management of USTU, to perform long-range strategic planning or to take decisive action in times of crisis. 4. Micromanagement of staff and day-to-day activities by USTU officers and Board members. 5. An allegiance to Korea to the detriment of U.S. programs and the interests of U.S. athletes. 6. An adherence to the Kukkiwon certification process and a failure to develop a U.S. Dan Certification program. 7. The lack of any financial standards or controls. 8. The complete disarray of financial records. 9. The failure to timely develop and implement a budget. 10. Large cash transactions without an adequate process for safeguarding assets. 11. Questionable use of funds (such as providing loans to employees, payment of questionable volunteer expenses and chartering aircraft to deliver medals from Korea). 12. Failure to fully utilize USOC grants in 2002 and 2003. Because of the serious nature of these problems, the Committee has determined that USTU is not in compliance with the requirements for membership as an Olympic Sport Organization or for recognition as an NGB, as set forth in the USOC Constitution and Bylaws and in the Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act. The Committee is prepared to send a Resolution to the USOC Board of Directors requesting that the Board 1) find that USTU is not in compliance with the requirements for membership as an Olympic Sport Organization or for recognition as an NGB, and 2) direct the Executive Committee to initiate action pursuant to Chapter IV, Section 5 of the USOC Bylaws to revoke USTUs membership in the USOC and recognition as an NGB. Accordingly, the Committee has placed USTU on its meeting agenda for September 12-13, 2003 in Denver, Colorado. The Committee will notify the USTU of the exact day and time at a later date. USTU should be prepared to explain why the Committee should not proceed with a resolution to the USOC Board of Directors. The Committee will consider any information that USTU wishes to submit regarding its governance structure, managerial capabilities, financial well being and fiscal competence. USTU is welcome to have any representative it sees fit to attend the Committees meeting. However, USTUs USOC AAC member, or alternate, should attend the meeting. If the AAC representative or alternate cannot attend the meeting, the Committee should be notified why that person is not attending and who will attend, with a statement from the AAC representative that the person attending is doing so as the AAC representatives designee. Please let the Committee know, at your earliest convenience, the names of those individuals who will be attending the meeting o-n behalf of USTU. All correspondence should be sent to Thomas L. Satrom, Chair of the Membership & Credentials Committee, c/o Office of General Counsel, United States Olympic Committee, o-ne Olympic Plaza, Colorado Springs, CO 80907-5760. If you have any questions, please contact Gary L. Johansen, USOC Deputy General Counsel, Jennifer Gabrius, USOC Counsel or Kay Burton, Legal Assistant at 719/866-4563. Sincerely, Thomas L. Satrom TLS/kmb cc: Sang Lee, USTU President Juan Moreno, USOC AAC Representative USOC Membership & Credentials Committee Jim Scherr, USOC Chair, Sport Performance Virginia Witte, USOC Director Audit Chris Telli, USOC Auditor Jeffrey G. Benz, USOC General Counsel and Director of Legal Affairs and Government Relations Gary L. Johansen, USOC Deputy General Counsel Jennifer Gabrius, USOC Counsel Kelly Skinner, Director of Sport Partnerships Michelle Farrell, Manager, Sport Partnerships --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 06:19:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Union declines USOC Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Union declines USOC order to restructure Associated Press DENVER -- The U.S. Olympic Committee will go through with plans to decertify the U.S. Taekwondo Union after that group's leaders rejected a series of changes to resolve organizational and financial problems. The USOC developed a plan that would allow USTU to keep its charter and maintain its status as the sport's national governing body, but USTU's executive committee refused to accept the changes Wednesday. The plan called for president Sang Lee and treasurer Ki Hong Kim to step down, a USOC official to oversee USTU's daily operations, the creation of a five-person oversight committee and the hiring of a chief financial officer. "It is unfortunate that the leadership of the U.S. Taekwondo Union has rejected the remediation plan offered by the USOC and has failed to effectively confront the problems facing the organization," USOC chief executive Jim Scherr said in a statement. The USOC said it hopes to complete the decertification process in a matter of weeks and will use any means available to seek repayment of about $206,000 owed the USOC. The USOC also will continue to withhold base funding payments, which it has done since January, and plans to manage the national qualifying tournament next month if the decertification process is completed before then. The USOC said it will continue to make performance payments to athletes, but those payments will now be made directly to the athletes. It would also manage taekwondo in the United States and select team members for the 2004 Athens Games if USTU is stripped of its charter. "We regret having to take these steps, but we are forced to do so based upon the clear lack of resolve that has been shown by the current USTU leadership," Scherr said. Messages left Wednesday night by The Associated Press at USTU headquarters in Colorado Springs were not returned. USTU came under fire earlier this year when a USOC investigation found USTU has shown an inability to effectively manage its operations and unacceptable financial standards. The USOC said it had audited USTU eight times in the past 11 years and repeatedly found breaches in internal controls and adopted policies. That includes repayment of over $244,000 in USOC funding due to unsubstantiated or inappropriate expenditures. USTU also has had four executive directors and five finance directors since 1997, and USOC officials recently learned that it failed to make scheduled support payments to eligible athletes. In a letter to USTU in August, USOC membership and credentials committee chair Thomas Satrom said the review found questionable use of funds, including loans to employees, payments for volunteers' expenses and chartering aircraft to deliver medals from Korea. The letter also suggested "an allegiance to Korea to the detriment of U.S. programs and the interests of U.S. athletes." The membership and credentials committee recommended decertifying USTU, a proposal that was approved by the USOC's board of directors in Cleveland two weeks ago. The USOC's executive committee will now look at the matter and it will be sent back to the board for a final vote if the decision is upheld. --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] quick rank To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 06:26:40 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Unfortunately these days it seems like the quick ranking happens in every > martial art. I have to admit that no matter what Hapkido organization I've > been associated with (with the exception of Master Harold Whalen) I have > seen people promoted quickly without the proper time in rank. I don't > condone this practice or do I participate in it but what can I do? I have > seen it in the WHF, the AHA, the KHA and unfortunately in the SMHKD org. It > makes me just shake my head and smile. All these 30 year old 6th, 7th and > 8th dans? In all fairness, quick rank has occurred all along. Just in the past it was saved for the rare individual, not your average chubby wannabe. e.g., in 1968 Choi Yong-sul promoted Ji Han-jae and Lee Joo-bang to 8th Dan. Gm Ji would have been 32, JB Lee in that same age range. Granted, Gm Ji is the reason that Hapkido is so well known today and was therefore a special case, but 30-something year old 8th Dans is not really a new event... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest