Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 14:53:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #486 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Today's Topics: 1. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Quick_Rank_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 2. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:Use_of_the_term_"Doju"_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 3. What is Tang Soo Do (Charles Richards) 4. GM Ji Han Jae Seminar - April 2004 (Chosondo@aol.com) 5. Re: Quick rank (ISA Headquarters) 6. Re: Ji Seminar (Beungood@aol.com) 7. RE: Quick Rank (Ali Alnasser) 8. Mat time (Rudy Timmerman) 9. Time in rank (Rudy Timmerman) 10. Re: quick rank/summer camps (Aaron Lassman) 11. Doju (Todd Miller) 12. Promotions (Todd Miller) 13. Re: Re: Master Rim, too fast? (ncahoots@comcast.net) 14. Re: Promotions (Ray Terry) 15. Re: Re: Master Rim, too fast? (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 08:46:15 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Quick_Rank_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Michael: "......I guess in the long run it is just paper to satisfy your ego,, what else could it be? When someone tells an unsuspecting person that isn't involved that deeply in the martial arts I guess telling them you are a 6th, 7th, or 8th dan must seem to really impress them,, and in turn satifies the false ego. Whatever happened to just training? ...." I agree completely with what you are saying. My sense is that the culprit is one-half ego on the part of the individual, and one-half ego on the part of the organization or person giving the cert. For instance, in an earlier post mention was made of giving GM Ji an 8th BB while he was in his thirties! OK, so now I have to ask why someone would do that. a.) Was there money to be made in the way of fees? Someone else who knows more will need to answer this one. b.) Was GM Ji actually that incredible technically to merit an 8th dan? Far as I know 8th dan is an administrative and not a technical rank. c.) Did GM Ji request the rank with the suggestion that being an 8th dan would facilitate expanding Hapkido in other areas such as the US? d.) Did GM Jis' social, employment, cultural or educational standing cause him to be considered for this rank. Now, I know I am using GM Ji as an example, but only as just that-- an example. This scene has been replayed a number of times and comparable situations discussed here on the DD. The way I see it, the Korean organizations are busting a gut trying to expand and corner markets, and they are finding partners with recognition hungery folks who want to be thought of something that they are not. Its like a match-&-gasoline. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 09:00:47 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:Use_of_the_term_"Doju"_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mike: ".....Negative! The term Doju is the Korean, and I might add it seems a recent use, of the Japanese Doshu. Doshu and Doju mean "Keeper of the Way" and is the title given to the rightful successor of a founder......" Many thanks for pointing this out. I still have no idea why folks are so hot to import this title thing from the Japanese. All I can think of is that the idea of "inheritor", or "keeper of the way" in hand with a linear succession makes sure that $$ will continue to flow only in a particular direction. I suppose for us in the computer-aged US it might be similar to "proprietary information" or "intellectual rights". I was sorta surprised to read on Master Rims' website that the family of Choi Yong Sul was making decisions about the direction of the arts management in much the same way as family members "inherit" a business from a dead relative. As I am writing this I am thinking about how many famous students Matsumura Sokon had in Okinawa, and I can't think of any of them that remotely suggested that THEY were the single holder of the teachers' wisdom. In fact, they passed THEIR students among the group so that the students benefited from various approaches. All the infighting came a couple generations later. How come the Koreans didn't inherit THIS approach? :-) Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:13:50 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] What is Tang Soo Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Bruce, Thanks again for prodding me into digging in some old books. You asked what are the principles in Tang Soo Do. Hapkido would be Yu, Wan and Hwa. Here is my humble reply. Shin, JC in his 1st book TSD Essence, describes the concept of Huri Twul Ki (Twisting of the waist). All techniques starts from the center and power is generated by the rotation of the waist. This is obvious in kicking, but a foundation of TSD hand motions. I beleive Nakayama explains this concept in slightly different words. Going through my memory, only (of the patterns I know) Naihanji have motions without waist twisting as the basis for power generation. In the same book Shin goes on to say that Tang Soo Do is a way of developing Harmony with nature and the concept of Um/Yang is central to understanding Tang Soo Do. Hard linear attacks are met with circular soft counters. The form sets include both ne ga (internal power) and weh ga (external power) techniques and the practitioner although better suited to one or the other should learn both to better understand the agressor AND himeself. Funakoshi Sensei also makes this point in slightly different words. Finally Shin goes on to say that through TSD training the mind and body are strengthened, but the purpose is to use this challenging and disciplined training to make a "better person." This should sound very familiar to Funakoshi's description of Karate-do versus Tote Jutsu of say O Sensei Matsumura. This also helps uncloud some lines in what I teach. All of the "stop hits" that I teach would not be TSD and best described as Jun Fan Gung Fu. It envolves meeting a linear attack with an intercepting linear counter on a more efficient path (the way of the intercepting fist). Ocassionally this includes "slipping" an attack so a forceful direct (often linear) counter can be applied. This concept is also not TSD. Hope this helps. There are others on the list that may add. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Chosondo@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:56:05 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] GM Ji Han Jae Seminar - April 2004 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings Mr. Simms: More detailed information will be forthcoming once the seminar's venue and lodging etc is finalized. This should be in the very near future. This seminar will primarily be taught by GM Ji. FYI, I have my own Hapkido program, Bo Dul Sin (Willow Tree Spirit) Hapkido and has for 13 years. However, I have also been a student of GM Ji for quite some time. I consider him my Hapkido mentor. BTW, for those of you who may be interested, GM Ji spends three (3) hours once per month with me and my dan ranking students. Anyone who wishes to participate is welcome to. Just get in touch with me Thanks. Ian A. Cyrus, Headmaster International Chosondo Federation Choson Kwon Bup - Hapkido - Taekwondo 7252 Valley Ave Philadelphia, PA 19128 215-483-5057 --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "ISA Headquarters" To: Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:04:33 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Quick rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net DDers, I wrote the following to one of my Representatives and send it to you to show what we in the ISA are doing to curtail the 30 and 40 year old 8th Dans: >>>> The ISA has made some significant changes since we last communicated. I, personally, have given back my higher ranks of 9th and 10th degree, as there are too many individuals floating around with that rank. As far as your being promoted to 7th Dan with the ISA, there are several requirements. The first of which is a "minimum" age requirement. I do not remember your age so you will have to remind me. All rank below the age of 18 years is null and void when it comes to promotion time requirements. I do not believe that anyone under age of 18 can know the true meaning of the martial arts and what it means to be a Master. With that said, here are the "minimum" time requirements for someone wishing to be promoted through the ISA: To 1st Dan: 18+ 2nd Dan add 2 years 3rd Dan add 3 years 4th Dan add 4 years 5th Dan add 5 years 6th Dan add 6 years 7th Dan add 7 years So if a person was 18 at 1st Dan, then the "minimum" age for promotion for the different levels would be: 2nd ...20 3rd ...23 4th ...27 5th ...32 6th ...38 7th ...45 If you meet the "minimum" time requirements, then we will discuss the other requirements. Respectfully, George Petrotta www.sungjado.org <<<< --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:30:11 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Ji Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 11/4/03 10:51:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: how GM Seo bowed- out of THE GATHERING a while back in Chicago. I think what I would need to know is how much mat time could one expect from GM Ji at this event. For example, I quick rule of thumb from my experiences are ,what ever the start and finish times are of the seminar you can probably count on being on the Mat the whole time. Every time I have trained with dojunim it wasd a minimum of 10 hours. That is what I like best about his seminars, you get a minimum of pagentry and a maximum of training time. And you dont end up paying alot and being treated like a second class citizen.. My .02 cents.. JAck --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Ali Alnasser" To: Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 01:54:47 +0900 (KST) Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Quick Rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In 1972, Grandmaster MYUNG Jae Nam was the 8th person to receive an 8th Dan from Grandmaster JI Han Jae. He would of been 34 years old. [TABLE NOT SHOWN][TABLE NOT SHOWN][IMAGE] --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 12:44:12 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Mat time Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > I just have memories of how GM Seo bowed- > out of THE GATHERING a while back in Chicago. I think what I would > need to > know is how much mat time could one expect from GM Ji at this event. Hello Bruce: As I saw it, GM Seo bowed out because he could not get enough mat time to make the trip from Korea worth while. In fact, even Ian KJN found his teaching time to be too short. The gathering is not geared to focus on one individual's teaching, rather it highlights many individuals for a short (15 min) period. It was a real problem for me to get something constructive done in 15 min, but I did meet a lot of very nice folks. Others seemed to do well with this format, so I think it is a matter of getting used to it. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 12:55:40 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Time in rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael writes: > Whatever happened to > just training? I remember back in the early 70's that people I was > around > NEVER cared about rank,, but today it is a big commodity.... Dudes I'm > just > gonna train and let the chips fall where they will... if YOU have some > advanced ranking that you don't deserve then deep down in your soul > you know > it is wrong and it will come out someday, life has a way of balancing > everyone out in the long run... I think you have a good handle on it Michael. Too few people train, and too many look for recognition. Perhaps we should create a seminar in defense with rolled up high ranking certificates in order to give the folks who own them something to defend themselves with:) FWIW, there IS another side to this coin. For example: I am not getting any younger, and after living up to the "time in rank" the way it used to be (coupled with being a bit stingy on granting rank), I find myself in a position where I don't have a high ranking student to take over my position. The error of my ways was pointed out to me by several Masters at the last Jackson seminar. On the positive side, I have been told that bad weeds never die, so I might still have time to bring up some followers:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Aaron Lassman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 10:11:46 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: quick rank/summer camps Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey gang, I have also seen a lot of "belt factories" in my day that will give black belts in less than a year, if you have the money, even if you have never studied any martial art before. I have been a student of martial arts off and on for more than 15 years and to this day, I don't have a black belt. My goal is to be awarded my first BB by summer of 2005 from the TKD school I am attending here in Mexico. I am a product of a very mobile family and have several white, yellow, orange, green, even blue belts from various schools around the US, mostly Kung FU. I tried (in my limited language capacity) to convince my TKD instructor here to not put me back at white belt when I first started training with him nearly three months ago. He had me come in and checked me out and said I was too kung fu and promptly handed me a white belt with a big grin. Which, in hind site, was just fine, albeit a rather large piece of humble pie. Nearly completing my third month, I will be testing for my 7 KUP in about 4 weeks and hopefully i will have reached 5 KUP by my birthday in march. Some of my other classmates are a little supprised that I have moved so fast, but support it with the knowledge that I am not a beginner. My point here is that going from white to blue in 4 months is fine for some, not so much for others. also.... Is it too early to start asking for advice on TKD summer camps for kids and adults. I have looked on the net and have seen that the ATA has many events, but you must be a member of ATA to attend. (The school I go to is KTA/WTF, with no affiliations in the US at all.) So, I guess, I would like to know if anyone has any information on TKD summercamps, websites or other available information in that regard. Especially in the Pacific North West area (ie, Seattle, WA, or Portland, OR.), that would be open to anyone. In good health, Aaron Lassman, CMT The Worlds Greatest Massage Therapist "I am not the same having seen the moon shine on the other side of the world" -Mary Anne M.B.L. Radmacher (www.wordshop.com) _________________________________________________________________ Crave some Miles Davis or Grateful Dead? Your old favorites are always playing on MSN Radio Plus. Trial month free! http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:00:35 -0500 From: Todd Miller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Doju Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am just going by what the Koreans I know have said and they have said that Doju means founder not keeper! Thank you. Todd --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:09:09 -0500 From: Todd Miller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Promotions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Contrary to what might be said. Choi, Yong Sool NEVER promoted GM Ji nor Joo, Bang Lee to 8th dan according to GM Chae who was a student of Choi's at the time. Todd --__--__-- Message: 13 From: ncahoots@comcast.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:19:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Master Rim, too fast? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I would like to preface my email by stating that I am not a senior student of Master Rim, although not a newbie either. I am not the authorative voice at Rim's Hapkido, that is reserved for Master Rim. Amed Hazel, is, by most accounts, the Dojang's unofficial historian and by far the most knowledgeable and the most outspoken advocate of Master Rim. So I can merely offer my observations and opinions, until Amed gets a chance to email the list. Observations from Bruce and my responses: "There is just something very different about the way that Korean nationals seem to feel about handing out rank versus other folks." - Bruce I guess I have to agree with you to a degree but cannot say that the rank was just handed out but earned, in a manner that we rarely see here in the US. Training here, for many of us, is 3 nights a week at 2 - 2 1/2 hours a pop. I feel sure that GM Rim trained at a schedule that was so much more time intensive. I do not know what his training schedule was, but as a student of GM Choi, but I am sure that one year of his training would equal more than one year of training for some of us here in the US. "..........I didn't understand why it would be necessary to furnish a cert specifically to recognize skill level in a 6th dan." In response to this, I want to state that it was my understanding that the certificate was not just to certify GM Rim's skill but more so to attest to the fact that Master Rim had preserved the traditional material and technique of GM Choi, Yong Sul. I say this in light of the fact that GM Choi had just met with most of the influential luminaries in New York in hope of unifying his art and to name his successor and thereby ensure the continuity of the art. It was my understanding that the successor he chose did not share his vision of unification. "I was sorta surprised to read on Master Rims' website that the family of Choi Yong Sul was making decisions about the direction of the arts management in much the same way as family members "inherit" a business from a dead relative. " - Bruce, I am not sure where you got this on the website. I do not recall such a statement at our webpage. Please direct me to the page in question and Ill try to field your question. As a final note, I would like to state that GM Rim does not run a commercial dojang, by any stretch of the imagination. I would bet that at any point in time we have no more than 10 to 12 people training. Advancements are hard won and no one buys a belt from Master Rim. Our monthly dues are a mere pittance, compared to what some other schools (in other arts) charge here in Baltimore. I think that the total amount of dues collected just covers our monthly rent in the building. The website is donated by the students of Master Rim and I, being webmaster, have to accept any responsibility, if erroneous information is found there. Master Rim speaks broken English, even after all of his years of residency here in the US, and is in reality somewhat computer illiterate. All information found on the site has been gleaned over time from Master Rim and some of his Senior Students. Please everyone note that the only website for GM Rim is at www.Rimshapkido.org, not .COM website. The Baltimore school is the headquarters dojang for GM Rim, It is the only school where GM Rim teaches. Amed and I would be more than happy to query GM Rim on any matters that the group may have interest. GM Rim would probably love to answer your questions directly but being computer illiterate has its drawbacks. We hope that GM Rim and his students can contribute to the Hapkido community. Thanks to you all for your patience with my long-windedness, Chuck Callahan www.RimsHapkido.org --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Promotions To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:19:52 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Contrary to what might be said. Choi, Yong Sool NEVER promoted GM Ji > nor Joo, Bang Lee to 8th dan according to GM Chae who was a student of > Choi's at the time. It occurred at a public, government sponsored exposition in May of 1968... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 15 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Master Rim, too fast? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 15:45:53 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Amed and I would be more than happy to query GM Rim on any matters that the > group may have interest. GM Rim would probably love to answer your questions > directly but being computer illiterate has its drawbacks. We hope that GM Rim > and his students can contribute to the Hapkido community. Just some feedback perhaps. A while back I purchased a series of HKD video tapes because they were supposed to feature Master Rim. His name was all over them, in the ads, on the videotape boxes, etc. The problem was that he wasn't the one doing the tape, it was a Master Joe Shea (or something like that), one of Rim's students. Joe seemed to be a fine fellow and all, but his Hapkido was only fair and more importantly the tapes did NOT feature Master Rim. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest