Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 03:01:53 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #487 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: Master Rim, too fast? (ncahoots@comcast.net) 2. time in rank (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 3. Orange Belt Test (DITTER66@aol.com) 4. Re: USOC to the USTU (Ray Terry) 5. Doju (A. Boyd) 6. Camps (Charles Richards) 7. OSOC and USTO (andrew pratt) 8. Re: Orange Belt Test (Ray Terry) 9. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Personalities?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 10. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_TSD_Concepts?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 11. Re: Master Rim, too fast? (Brian Beach) 12. Doju-ness (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: ncahoots@comcast.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:37:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Master Rim, too fast? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net BTW, I am headed out for a night of training at the dojang. I will try to get a chance to talk with GM Rim after practice. Chuck Callahan --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:22:25 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] time in rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just not in a hurry. Actually I went independent in 91. I actually expected to be a 4th dan for the rest of my life. Then a friend from the late 80's introduced me to Master West. I joined the USKMAF after spending the weekend at his dojang in Jackson. That Saturday night (spring of 99), Master Hodder, Mrs. West, Master West and I went out to dinner. I was introduced to a Mississippi buffet... Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com PS. I would rather spend to much time in one rank, than not enough... <<>> <<>> --__--__-- Message: 3 From: DITTER66@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 18:57:09 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Orange Belt Test Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Mary Subject: Orange Belt IM not sure if you all remember me. My son and I started TaeKwonDo 6 months ago, my life was being a military wife when my husband died in an accident at FT. lewis WA. On the 25 of October my son and I tested and received our orange belt what a feeling, I realize that being a white belt was like learning to crawl and now we are learning to walk and falling a lot. I am so very grateful to have Had such wonderful support from GM Jack Hwang and all of his instructors, I could not have made it without them Mary in Oklahoma --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] USOC to the USTU To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:02:02 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > 6. An adherence to the Kukkiwon certification process and a failure to > develop a U.S. Dan Certification program. Not sure anyone commented on this when it came up before.?. Any former or current Judoka here? Does USA Judo (usjudo.org) have their own Dan cert program or do they just go through the Kodokan? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:57:40 -0500 (EST) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Doju Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It should be noted that if you are talking to a Korean who is not involved in the politics or history of martial arts that there is no immediate recognition of the term 'Doju'. They get it when you explain your context, but not right off the bat. As Todd Miller wrote, they describe it as Founder once you clarify what you are babbling on about. As an aside, the average person I ask also still thinks of a kwanjang-nim as being the head of an art rather than the operator of a martial arts school. This shows how little real interest in the workings of martial arts the average Korean has. ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:58:15 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Camps Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Is it too early to start asking for advice on TKD summer camps for kids and adults. I have looked on the net and have seen that the ATA has many events, but you must be a member of ATA to attend. (The school I go to is KTA/WTF, with no affiliations in the US at all.) So, I guess, I would like to know if anyone has any information on TKD summercamps, websites or other available information in that regard. Especially in the Pacific North West area (ie, Seattle, WA, or Portland, OR.), that would be open to anyone. Dear Aaron, I would say ATA defines closed organization, which is too bad because they do appear to have some good stuff from what I can filter out of their web site(s). I can't speak for the northwest, but GM Hodder (TKD) and Master McHenry (TSD) generally have enough kick-punch player oriented material to make it worth your while to attend the Jackson Seminar hosted by GM West. If you ever want to see the glorious southeast, then the Moja Kwan Moo Do Camp is generally, the first weekend in Fall (September) In good health, __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 7 From: andrew pratt To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 10:15:20 +0900 Subject: [The_Dojang] OSOC and USTO Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net All, Of all the serious and valid criticisms the OSOC raised I was struck by the following: > 6. An adherence to the Kukkiwon certification process and a failure to develop a U.S. Dan Certification program. < This would appear to be one mighty can of worms. Does any other major martial art's organisation in the US, particularly judo, have a US dan certification program?? For the sake of brevity, I will leave all the other worms buried for now ;-) Best wishes, Andrew Pratt --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Orange Belt Test To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:13:58 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > IM not sure if you all remember me. My son and I started TaeKwonDo 6 months >ago, my life was being a military wife when my husband died in an accident at >FT. lewis WA. On the 25 of October my son and I tested and received our >orange belt what a feeling, I realize that being a white belt was like learning >to crawl and now we are learning to walk and falling a lot. I am so very >grateful to have Had such wonderful support from GM Jack Hwang and all of his >instructors, I could not have made it without them Hi Mary in Oklahoma, Of course we remember you. Congrats!!! Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:05:11 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Personalities?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Chuck & Ahmed, Kevin, Ray etc., etc. You folks have been great about the information! Many, Many thanks. I am sure that with so much passed so quickly maybe people are beginning to see how some of this comes together, yes? Here is some of the information I have pulled together. There seem to be a few people in the running for the title of "doju". a.) Chang, Chin Il seems to have the high ground as he was promoted by Choi Yong Sul and is apparently the only person to have a 10th dan from Choi directly. b.) Kim, Yun Sang takes second place as one of the few 9th dan awarded by Choi, but got his Doju from the widow of Chois' son, Choi Bok Yuel. c.) Lim, Hyun Soo gets an honorable mention for maintaining the Choi art for the longest time period, 22 years, without getting a "doju" of his own. I wonder how that worked? Now, I didn't put GM Ji into the mix though I am sure that a great many would generally consider him a de facto "doju" to the Choi tradition and certainly holds that title for his own tradition. The only person I couldn't quite find a spot for was Master Rim as his standing is somewhat unique. He continues to teach traditional Choi material but does it in the US--- which is, of itself no mean feat.:-) However, the difference is just a bit more than that. Consider that Ji, Han Jae and Moo Woong Kim were the folks who are identified as introducing much of the kicking material to what we now call "modern" Hapkido. So many traditions share the kicking material to the point that we sometimes no longer realize that there are still people out there (like the three personalities above) who don't actually teach much kicking at all. This also raises some interesting questions (You KNEW that was coming, didn't you!) 1.) Should truely traditional Hapkido have kicks, or not? 2.) If one includes the kicking material in their Hapkido can they legitimately claim Choi as their source (since he didn't teach the kicking material) or must they start only with folks who include the kicking material (IE. Ji, Kim, Lee, or Seo)? 3.) Without the kicking material, Hapkido is very much like Daito-ryu AJJ to which some lay claim. If one does not teach the kicking material, and can legitimately claim lineage back to Choi, can a similar claim be made back even farther to the Japanese traditions? 4.) I have heard about the folks closer to Choi, and I have mentioned GM Ji. However, one person who seems to have slipped off the scope is Moo Woong Kim. Does he still have individuals that practice his style of Hapkido and his style of kicking? I understand that Lee, Joo Bang studied under him for a while (could be wrong). 5.) These folks continue to have relationships among themselves. For instance since Lim, Hyun Soo was the longest running student and Choi taught in his school does that mean that Kim, Yun Sang when training under Choi actually was attending Lims' school? How did they get along? Or, did folks get along for a while and then moved on when it became apparent that they would not be the next person to sit on the top of the pyramid? Thats all I have right now! Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:15:59 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_TSD_Concepts?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Charles: ".....Shin, JC in his 1st book TSD Essence, describes the concept of Huri Twul Ki (Twisting of the waist). All techniques starts from the center and power is generated by the rotation of the waist. This is obvious in kicking, but a foundation of TSD hand motions. I beleive Nakayama explains this concept in slightly different words. Going through my memory, only (of the patterns I know) Naihanji have motions without waist twisting as the basis for power generation. In the same book Shin goes on to say that Tang Soo Do is a way of developing Harmony with nature and the concept of Um/Yang is central to understanding Tang Soo Do. Hard linear attacks are met with circular soft counters. The form sets include both ne ga (internal power) and weh ga (external power) techniques and the practitioner although better suited to one or the other should learn both to better understand the agressor AND himeself. Funakoshi Sensei also makes this point in slightly different words....." The power generation from twisting at the waist is a pretty well-known dynamic and I think just about everyone finds pieces of that in their own arts. What I was curious about was the idea of meeting a hard attack with a soft response. We have something similar in Hapkido ("meet hard with soft, and soft with hard") but it doesn't seem supported by the TSD curriculum, unless I am misunderstanding what I am reading. If one were to meet hard with soft, I would have expected much more use of open-hand blocking and redirecting, and no use of hard blocks. In fact, this was where I wanted to go with the questions about Tan Tui and Taek Kuk forms since they are derived from Chinese traditions. I know that the Okinawans went through changes where some open-handed material was changed to closed- handed, is this what the TSD folks did when they adopted the Chinese material? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 23:00:35 -0500 From: Brian Beach To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Master Rim, too fast? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net On Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 05:53 PM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > As a final note, I would like to state that GM Rim does not run a > commercial dojang, > by any stretch of the imagination. What a great gym to work out in - Between Master Rim and John Anderson of the Judo Club there is some great martial arts going on there. I met Mr. Anderson once when I traveled up there with the NIH Judo Club and was very impressed with him. He's got to be in his late seventies and demonstrated a leg choke on me, I was out in seconds. I didn't know that was the main dojang I thought it was an offshoot of the Annapolis Dojang. It is definitely an "old school" gym when you walk in you can smell the hard work that goes on there. From the outside it looks like it could be an automotive shop. Tiny little sign painted on plywood. The mats are the old wrestling style. You can feel the history of the place. Very cool. Impressed in Takoma Park Brian Beach UMBC - Grad and shopper at the Appalachian Bluegrass Shoppe --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:42:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Doju-ness Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Now, I didn't put GM Ji into the mix though I am sure that a great many > would generally consider him a de facto "doju" to the Choi tradition and > certainly holds that title for his own tradition. As you say, Gm Ji is Doju of his own Hapkido tradition. I've never asked him this directly, but I suspect he would NOT claim Doju status of Choi's Yawara. His view is that he learned Jujutsu (Yawara) from Gm Choi and then went on to expand that material into what we now recognize (in Korea and most of the rest of the world) as Hapkido. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest