Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 03:01:48 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #494 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Koguryo (Jye nigma) 2. Power from the waist/hips... (Eric Walker) 3. Hapkido video? (Todd Miller) 4. Mr. Peters on power from the waist... (Eric Walker) 5. RE: open/closed fist (Giddins, Greg) 6. Re: open or closed hand/waist power (Aaron Lassman) 7. RE: Wrist Grabs (Kirk Lawson) 8. Re: Re: open or closed hand/waist power (Jye nigma) 9. Re: 12th Dan (Nathan Miller) 10. Re: RE: open/closed fist (Jye nigma) 11. Re: Re: open closed fist (Jye nigma) 12. Bernard on the "song of the sip sam seh" (George Peters) 13. Last Samurai (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 14. Closed fist only? (Bernard Redfield) 15. Re: Wrist Grabs (tim walker) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 11:47:38 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Koguryo To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You're absolutely correct, I was talking about what the original poster posted, but you've answered it much better. Jye --- "Burdick, Dakin R" wrote: > Khalkee@netscape.net wrote: > > >What's the interpretation of "ryu"? If you think > that it's a purely > Japanese term, then check out the old names of > Kogu-Ryu and Manchu-Ryu > ... Manchuria (Mongolia) and Korea, eh? > > Do you mean Koguryo? The Japanese "ryu" is spelled > "yu" in Korean, so > there isn't a connection there. Koryu in Japan > means "old school" or > "old stream." It isn't related to Koryo, the > ancient name of Korea. > And wasn't "Manchuria" derived from > Manjusri-bodhisattva (Monju Bossatsu > in Japanese), the Bodhisattva of Meditation or of > Supreme Wisdom, the > left-hand attendant of Shakyamuni Buddha? So I > think you are mixing up > three different words that sound similar in English. > In reality, they > don't have anything to do with each other. It is > kind of like "shinken" > which in Japanese means "spirit sword" but in German > means "pig." It's > like people in different countries have a different > word for everything! > [last bit stolen from Steve Martin] > > Jye nigma wrote: > > >I think where the difference lies is how ryu is > written (at least in > english) like "Koga-ryu", it isn't written together > like Kogaryu. > > Actually, we can write either Koga-ryu or Kogaryu. > Either is correct. > > Take care, > > Dakin > dakinburdick@yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Eric Walker" To: Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 14:21:20 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Power from the waist/hips... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Sims, You wrote; "My sense is that the abdominals and obliques were understood to be massive contributors to technique effectiveness generations ago even if the MA of old didn't really know them for what they were." That is an interesting thought; I've always been taught that power in hapkido is developed in the center of the abdominals or in the tanjun. This has been intellectual for me through most of my martial training, however the body understanding of this concept has begun to awaken for me recently, and it's made a big change. I have also found that the timing of all of the parts, locking of the joints and simultaneous tensing of muscles in the entire body at the moment of impact have increased my power. This stuff is what I find really fascinating about martial arts training, and I see, now that I have been around a little while, that what I've been told all this time really works. I never really doubted it, but I never could grasp it fully. In the beginning it's sort of like trying to describe "red" to a man that is blind from birth. This line of thought also makes me think of the "6th dan at 30" phenomenon. These people must either be prodigies or else the have no idea what it is that they have missed. I'm about to test for dan rank after almost seven years, and the future of my hapkido looms so large that I can't see any horizons. I feel like I am just beginning to understand what it means to be a student. To each his own I guess... To Mr. Terry, Good luck with the shoulder, I hope you feel better soon. Eric --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 15:27:24 -0500 From: Todd Miller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido video? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > A few years ago while I was at two of Master Mike's (Wollmershauser's) > annual BB dinners, he kept talking about how this could be the year that > Chin Il Chang releases "The Video." From what my old instructor told me, > this video tape, shot by Master Mike, shows Dojunim Choi promoting Chin Il > Chang and naming him successor of Dojunim Choi's Hapkido in hopes to unite > the entire Hapkido Community. It was also said that Master Mike lent the > video to Chin Il Chang, but never got it back. At the current time, it is > in the possession of Chin Il Chang. It has never been released. I know a > few people in Master Mike's org that saw the video, but I believe it wasn't > in English. > > My questions were if this video tape showed him receiving his 10th dan and > him being the successor, why would he suppress the tape? > I saw This video tape and it was an interveiw with Choi, Yong Sool. There was no promotion involved as I remember. Take care Todd --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Eric Walker" To: Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 15:04:19 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Mr. Peters on power from the waist... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Peters, I was agreeing with you all the way in my first post (I don't have it here, I'm at work) I guess I was trying to say, in my normal rambling fashion, that I thought that those concepts were not unique to TSD. I thought you were wondering aloud whether or not they may be. Anyhow we certainly agree on the total of the parts! I'm curious about TSD however. Is it style that is sort of a middle ground between hard style like TKD and soft style like HKD? I've never been exposed to it, nobody teaches it around here. What's a good, inexpensive book for me to read? How long have you been training in TSD? Is it an "older" or a "newer" style? Enjoy the day... Eric --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Giddins, Greg" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 14:18:13 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: open/closed fist Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "What I have found is that the open hand can move faster, probably because the muscles in the forearm are more relaxed and balanced than with a clenched fist." At about greenbelt level what I was taught, and what I start to teach my greenbelts (I'm a fellow TSD guy) is to start all the closed hand blocks with a relaxed hand, and just before impact to clench the fist tightly (and, depending on the block, add a little wrist rotation at the end). My experience matches yours in that if the fist is clenched tightly throughout the technique it tends to slow down the arm. Keeping relaxed until near the end of the block helps with that. It takes considerable practice to turn this movement into an advantage, but eventually everyone "gets it", and I get to vicariously enjoy one of those precious "the light just went on" moments with a student. I love that. And I've found this particular technique tends to trigger one of those in nearly every student at some point between greenbelt and redbelt. Anyone else learn/teach that way? Greg G --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Aaron Lassman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 13:32:20 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: open or closed hand/waist power Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net open/closed- I have been taught to use open hand for hard target, closed hand for soft target. Not so much that i don't hurt myself, but more for that whole yin-yang thang. A soft hand on a hard target will deliver a greater amount of power over a wider area upon impact and visa versa... waisted power- the book "Zen in the Martial Arts" (by Joe Hyams) talks about how Bruce Lee once punched a man 5 feet backwards into a swimming pool by placing his figertips on the man's chest then "merely" closes his fist. We also saw Bruce Lee do this in a movie (yes, i know... it's only a movie), the title escapes me at the moment. I only mention it because if you notice his technique, his whole body position changes noticably from the hip as he "merely" closes his hand into a fist. I seem to recall also seeing video footage of board, ice, and concrete being broken using this same technique. In my experience, I have always been taught to punch/kick from the waist to generate more power. Physiologically, if you look at your body as a lever, the hip can be looked at as the fulcrum from where power generates. From the hip, the spine begins a turn that reaches its maximum kinetic energy potential as your hand makes contact with its target. In effect using not just several muscles in your shoulder and arm, but hundreds throughout your whole body. You can certainly light a room with one candle, but it is much easier to see using many. In good health, Aaron Lassman "I am not the same having seen the moon shine on the other side of the world" -Mary Anne M.B.L. Radmacher (www.wordshop.com) _________________________________________________________________ Compare high-speed Internet plans, starting at $26.95. https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 17:08:00 -0500 From: Kirk Lawson Organization: Heapy Engineering To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ("THE$DOJA@SMTP {the_dojang@martialartsresource.net}") Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Wrist Grabs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 12:29:32 -0500 > From: Pat Montini > Organization: Mount Gallitzin Academy > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] Wrist Grabs > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Dear Friends, > Outside of the dojang, I find it difficult to practice wrist grabs > sololy. Does anyone have any suggestions as to practice wrist > grabs, ie > same side, opposite side grabs? You need a partner. Get a friend or significant other to just "walk through" them with you. You can practice them lightly with no force and still go through the motions. > Also, does anyone have any suggestions > on how to help one develop the vertical jump? ie, jumps for the jump > back kick, jump side kick? When I attempt these jumps, my > height of jump > does not give me space to execute the kick. > Thank you for your time to read this > Pat Look into "Plyometrics" and "body weight" training. http://www.trainforstrength.com/ex-2.shtml http://pub17.ezboard.com/fanimalabilityanimalability http://pub58.ezboard.com/fbodyweightboardfrm1 www.dolfzine.com www.workingclassfitness.com www.mma.tv Peace favor your sword --- "In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use." -Achille Marozzo, 1536 --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 14:30:19 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: open or closed hand/waist power To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net YEs sometimes it is better for penetrating purposes to use soft weapon to hard target, and hard weapon to soft target. Sometimes it's common sense, like you wouldn't want to punch the top of someone's head. But then it is because of chi penetration...You'd slap the top of the head to allow the chi to penetrate the skull. As far as Bruce Lee and his 1" punch...make no mistake, he did use the 'snap' in the waist to generate power, but he also used chi flow to amplify his power. I once read a magazine that said he could punch harder then a heavy weight. interesting huh? Jye --- Aaron Lassman wrote: > open/closed- > > I have been taught to use open hand for hard target, > closed hand for soft > target. Not so much that i don't hurt myself, but > more for that whole > yin-yang thang. A soft hand on a hard target will > deliver a greater amount > of power over a wider area upon impact and visa > versa... > > waisted power- > > the book "Zen in the Martial Arts" (by Joe Hyams) > talks about how Bruce Lee > once punched a man 5 feet backwards into a swimming > pool by placing his > figertips on the man's chest then "merely" closes > his fist. We also saw > Bruce Lee do this in a movie (yes, i know... it's > only a movie), the title > escapes me at the moment. I only mention it because > if you notice his > technique, his whole body position changes noticably > from the hip as he > "merely" closes his hand into a fist. I seem to > recall also seeing video > footage of board, ice, and concrete being broken > using this same technique. > > In my experience, I have always been taught to > punch/kick from the waist to > generate more power. Physiologically, if you look > at your body as a lever, > the hip can be looked at as the fulcrum from where > power generates. From > the hip, the spine begins a turn that reaches its > maximum kinetic energy > potential as your hand makes contact with its > target. In effect using not > just several muscles in your shoulder and arm, but > hundreds throughout your > whole body. You can certainly light a room with one > candle, but it is much > easier to see using many. > > > > In good health, > > Aaron Lassman > > "I am not the same having seen the moon shine on the > other side of the > world" > -Mary Anne M.B.L. Radmacher (www.wordshop.com) > > _________________________________________________________________ > Compare high-speed Internet plans, starting at > $26.95. > https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by > service area.) > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 14:46:47 -0800 (PST) From: Nathan Miller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: 12th Dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I believe Dr. Kano was promoted to 12th Dan after > his passing. Yes? > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com I remember that, as well. I would really have to do some digging to find where I read it, though. The story, as I recall, says that Kano, a schoolteacher, originally envisioned dan rankings much like school - one per year. In practice, of course, this never happened, and, I believe, he promoted some to 10th dan but never any higher. This is why, at his death, his students promoted him to 12th dan and retired 11th and 12th dan ranks, so no one would approach him. I'll see if I can dig the source up somewhere. Nathan --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 14:48:01 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: open/closed fist To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I typically strike with open hand strikes, but when I do punch, I make keep my hands completely open until seconds before I make contact then it is a fist at the point of contact. Even in strictly boxing, my fist are lose until seconds before contact. It is extremely important to have a relaxed body so that your energey flows freely and is not constricted, or partially used up from being so tight. Think of snapping a wet towel....you can let the towel fall by itself, but at the last second pull back with a great force and SNAP...you hear the towel's cracking noise, and the one on the receiving end...whew sorry for them. Jye --- "Giddins, Greg" wrote: > "What I have found is that the open hand can move > faster, > probably because the muscles in the forearm are more > relaxed and balanced > than with a clenched fist." > > > At about greenbelt level what I was taught, and what > I start to teach my > greenbelts (I'm a fellow TSD guy) is to start all > the closed hand blocks > with a relaxed hand, and just before impact to > clench the fist tightly (and, > depending on the block, add a little wrist rotation > at the end). > > My experience matches yours in that if the fist is > clenched tightly > throughout the technique it tends to slow down the > arm. Keeping relaxed > until near the end of the block helps with that. It > takes considerable > practice to turn this movement into an advantage, > but eventually everyone > "gets it", and I get to vicariously enjoy one of > those precious "the light > just went on" moments with a student. I love that. > And I've found this > particular technique tends to trigger one of those > in nearly every student > at some point between greenbelt and redbelt. > > Anyone else learn/teach that way? > > Greg G > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 15:05:30 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: open closed fist To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I actually do it the opposite way. open hand until point of impact. But when the strike is an open hand strike such as the ridge of my hand striking forward [put both hands together as if praying, remove one and that is how I strike, with the one hand and the ridge vertically]. The hand is extremely lose but at impact...watch out, it's hard and flexed. Jye --- Michael Whalen wrote: > FWIW: I was taught that all hand strikes start with > a closed fist and if > an open handed strike is intended it was opened only > at the last moment > before hitting the target. This combined with a > "snapping" of the waist > towards my intended target seems to have given me a > lot more power and speed. > > michael whalen KSWnut __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 18:13:18 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Bernard on the "song of the sip sam seh" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir: Thank you for your time and effort, although what I had inquired about was the author of the aforementioned work. Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ MSN Shopping upgraded for the holidays! Snappier product search... http://shopping.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 13 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 19:13:30 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Last Samurai Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://lastsamurai.warnerbros.com/html_index.php fyi....new movie coming out take care, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:10:46 -0500 From: Bernard Redfield To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Closed fist only? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....The org I belong to says to always have the hand in a closed fist, I will have to inquire why. Can you think of a good reason for this? I mean on all levels gup to dan....." This is interesting, you mean the one steps and intermediate/ advanced techniques you have learned have no open hand blocks/ grabs ?? I myself am a practitioner of Tang Soo Do and the techs of the TSDMGKA the org. I belong to have many open hand blocks, and the USSBDMDKF along with several others I know also teach open hand blocking and strikes from white belt on. oh well, same apple different orchard I guess. P.S. Hello Chris LaCava, I recall Master Art mentioning the same thing you mentioned about Chang Chin-Il, I never went to the dinner though : ( Talked to Master Art just the other day he is well. Have fun in NH,miss hitting the matt with you, I would go but I will be in Pittsburg at a memorial tournament. bernard --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "tim walker" To: Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 21:11:01 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Wrist Grabs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Pat: A wise man with a Mississippi accent once told me to practice a technique first a thousand times solo with your eyes closed, imagining the technique to completion, then a thousand times with a partner, then you own the technique. Of course, he said it better. As for the jumping, I'm a white guy and everybody knows.... shortly, tim --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. 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