Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 03:01:52 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #507 - 16 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: Gedo Chang (Donald Pillow) 2. Re: shameless plug for dan bongs (Michael Whalen) 3. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Knife_stuff_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 4. Re: Board Holding (Manuel Maldonado) 5. Practice with live steel (Burdick, Dakin R) 6. Rubber knives...to Jye (Eric Walker) 7. Re: Practice with live steel (Ray Terry) 8. Re: dan bongs (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 9. Re: mojaman (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 10. Re: Rubber knives...to Jye (Jye nigma) 11. Knife defense... (Eric Walker) 12. knife practice (DrgnSlyr5@aol.com) 13. Re: Sword stuff (Jye nigma) 14. Re: Sword and Fan Hyungs (Ken Nessworthy) 15. Taekwondo specifics (Ray Terry) 16. Re: Taekwondo Specifics (Keith Causton) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Dingodog1@webtv.net (Donald Pillow) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:16:27 -0500 (EST) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Gedo Chang Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm not sure but maybe some other list members can help. Also, there are several contacts on the web if you punch in Chang's Hapkido Academy. They were very helpful and gracious. There is also contact info on Budoseek under Announcements: Hapkido Seminar --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Michael Whalen" To: "dojang digest" Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:10:11 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: shameless plug for dan bongs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Does anyone know a good online source for ordering a Dan Bong? I know a guy who custom makes them out of exotic woods. You can contact me @ whalen@natgraph.com if interested. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:25:09 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Knife_stuff_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dakin: "..... I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one Bruce. Any blade is a dangerous weapon. Your response seems to have been based on the idea that such a strike would be lethal, and I agree that a lethal cut is not going to be easy to do (hence sentry elimination techniques) BUT a knife is incapacitating....." You know, we are both scholarly types. There really ought to be some way to objectively measure what we are discussing. I am sure that both of us are talking about ft/# of pressure and biomechanics such as drawing or pressing the sword/knife while excuting the slash, cut or thrust. My original argument was motivated by a comment someone made about using wooden knives in sparring and I have to tell you that I just don't see the percentage. As you pointed out, using Kendo as an example, hitting someone with something is different than slashing, cutting or penetrating. Even my sword teacher will be the first to tell you that training to hit someone with a juk-to is different than cutting a target. I'm not saying that there aren't some handling skills one picks up with a lipstick smeared wooden tanto. But there needs to be some way of incorporating the necessary committment to a technique. You know, I was just thinking that those tough little men from Nepal -- the Gurkhas--- pride themselves on their considerable knife skills and have proven their abilities in combat. Does anyone know anything about THEIR training approach? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Manuel Maldonado" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 08:47:13 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Board Holding Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello all. I myself don't break boards, haven't for some 14 years I prefere concrete. The ITF uses board holders. A metal devise that can hold up to 15 boards. Maybe you should consider buying or making yourselfs one. I'm in the process of developing one that could be "marketable" easy to ship ect. The materials I've been using ie PVC ect don't hold up too well and metal even though the best choice would be too expensive to ship. I've been braking my brain on this for about a year now. Hopefully I can come up with something. The Martial Arts Supermarket in NJ markets one it's plastic and comes with rebreakable boards, not sure if one can put real boards in it.Thanks again Master Maldonado http://devoted.to/Taekwondo ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Send a QuickGreet with MSN Messenger. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 11:51:55 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Practice with live steel Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Eric Walker wrote: How many of you practice with a live blade when doing knife defense (at least some of the time)? Jye wrote: That's crazy. My comment: I agree with Jye on this one. Sparring with live steel is just plain stupid. I had a friend who took another friend's eye out while doing a 2 man sword kata. That means a pre-arranged set of moves that they had done before and knew what they should do at each moment. He'll never touch a sword again. Actually sparring with live steel is incredibly dangerous. Don't do it. Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Eric Walker" To: Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 11:57:53 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Rubber knives...to Jye Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It's not crazy; it's confidence in your technique. This isn't some jerk jumping around really trying to hurt you with the knife; it's an advanced martial arts partner that you've been working with for some time, many years perhaps. My instructor has been training and studying for longer than I've been alive (I'm 35). I agree with what he says, and I quote him, "If you won't do it with a real knife, don't teach it." I'm not talking about a flash in the pan 30 year old 6th dan here, he's a 50+ year old sixth dan that has trained under GM Kimm, He Young and is (as far as I can tell)GM Park, Jung Hwan's senior student, and has trained with many of the other hapkido Masters and Grand Masters that I see people mention in this forum, including Masters West, Myung, and others. He's not a political guy so he teaches a small class and lives in the country. But he is by far the best martial artist I've ever had the privilege to train under. The other quote that comes to mind is, "In the real world you can't defend against a knife so if you can, RUN!" and "The only time you can defend against a knife is when you've resigned yourself to death and your attacker KNOWS he's gonna cut you on the next stab..." That one is sort of paraphrased, but I believe he's talking about the concept of "mind-of-no-mind" here. Any how I think rubber knives are so unrealistic that they really have no place in a true self defense class. Stick to wooden or sheathed knives and as Mr. Terry says, after a year or so of practice, take the sheath off and make sure you have the ability to really do that technique! Have a fun day :) Eric "That's crazy. Anything can happen, now when I was in my early teens and a guy heard that I studied martial arts he pulled a real knife out and attempted to attack me....I think in all his efforts I got him to drop the knife and that thing could fall any kind of way, on/inb your foot, thigh, etc. Jye" --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Practice with live steel To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 09:14:58 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I agree with Jye on this one. Sparring with live steel is just plain > stupid. Not all out sparring, of course not. But working live is necessary to develop proper skills and real appreciation of the blade. However, the first rule of knife fighting still applies, "You will get cut." Else, take up knitting... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 15:01:22 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: dan bongs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Personally, I would suggest contacting someone like Melinda here on the Net and ordering up one of her chang bong (staffs) and then cutting it into forearm-length sections. The definition of a dan bong is 12inch by 1 inch in diameter but there is quite a bit of room for variance." thanks, bruce. and speaking of variance, one of my instructors used to take a magazine, roll it up as tight as humanly possible, and tape it tight with electrical tape. worked great...lol :) take care, mel Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 9 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 15:08:57 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: mojaman Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net hey charles, with all this talk about knives, am i mistaken, or was it you who dropped a knife in the kitchen and had it skewer your foot? althought the chances of that happening are slim....ouch...i guess it does happen. take care, mel Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy www.cjmaa.com 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply www.cjmas.com 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:25:45 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Rubber knives...to Jye To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Now don't get me wrong. Having a background in chinese systems also, I'm no new comer to using real weapons in training (everything from sharpened butterfly swords, to broadswords, to chain whips, to real nunchukus)...I just am thinking about how we do our techniques to really hit someone and when we block or redirect, I'm thinking about what could happen to a knife either being dropped, hitting the floor, or what ever. But now that I think about it, it's silly because if I train with a real sword, why wouldn't I train with a real knife? lol. DUH right? *Now I did see a show about some military guys who partake in a type of "tradition" where each person is armed with a real knife and they spar. From what I saw you're not allowed to stab, so it's more of a slashing movement that they all do. They do this with no protective equipment on, real sharpned knives, and they do get cut....but wierd enough I didn't see real deep cuts. I think they were some type of special force group, I want to say the seals. Would you participate in something like that? Jye Eric Walker wrote: It's not crazy; it's confidence in your technique. This isn't some jerk jumping around really trying to hurt you with the knife; it's an advanced martial arts partner that you've been working with for some time, many years perhaps. My instructor has been training and studying for longer than I've been alive (I'm 35). I agree with what he says, and I quote him, "If you won't do it with a real knife, don't teach it." I'm not talking about a flash in the pan 30 year old 6th dan here, he's a 50+ year old sixth dan that has trained under GM Kimm, He Young and is (as far as I can tell)GM Park, Jung Hwan's senior student, and has trained with many of the other hapkido Masters and Grand Masters that I see people mention in this forum, including Masters West, Myung, and others. He's not a political guy so he teaches a small class and lives in the country. But he is by far the best martial artist I've ever had the privilege to train under. The other quote that comes to mind is, "In the real world you can't defend against a knife so if you can, RUN!" and "The only time you can defend against a knife is when you've resigned yourself to death and your attacker KNOWS he's gonna cut you on the next stab..." That one is sort of paraphrased, but I believe he's talking about the concept of "mind-of-no-mind" here. Any how I think rubber knives are so unrealistic that they really have no place in a true self defense class. Stick to wooden or sheathed knives and as Mr. Terry says, after a year or so of practice, take the sheath off and make sure you have the ability to really do that technique! Have a fun day :) Eric "That's crazy. Anything can happen, now when I was in my early teens and a guy heard that I studied martial arts he pulled a real knife out and attempted to attack me....I think in all his efforts I got him to drop the knife and that thing could fall any kind of way, on/inb your foot, thigh, etc. Jye" _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Eric Walker" To: Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 15:32:44 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Knife defense... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Richards wrote ---"Start with protective gear and work up to no protective gear except goggles before you decide to face cold steel." We haven't used protective gear from day one. We use a large measure of control in the beginning, but protective gear? Seems like too much to me, why not wear protective gear whenever we train then? You never know what could happen...a finger can do a lot of damage to an eye so why not always wear goggles. Don't you think that we should train as realistically as possible? If not aren't we teaching our selves to miss/lose? Sure, you should have plenty of practice before "going live" as Mr. Terry puts it, but all the protection...I don't know. ---"Also, if you do some of the parry/grab/wrist twisting defenses, the knife can come out of the attackers hand. I have had practice knives droped on my foot, fall on the attacker during the takedown, fall on the floor and then have the attacker fall on them, and have the practice knife fly across the room." True, these are all factors, and again the repeated practice is necessary, plus the familiarity with your partner comes in to play here too. I don't see this as green belt technique by any stretch of the imagination. I know there are many styles and instructors that teach knife early on; I wonder how many of those instructors tell their students that this stuff really only works under certain circumstances and that their best line of defense is to RUN!! False confidence can be a terrible thing. ---"I have two puncture scars to remind me what happens when you do things unsafely or without qualified coaching and preparation." I have upwards of twenty puncture wounds on my left hand including one that goes all the way through. This isn't a result of KMA or knife practice though; rather it's from my early working days as an oyster shucker. I've been cut more times than I care to remember, mostly on the hands although in other places too. Guess what? It didn't kill me. I'm not afraid to be cut, I don't like it though, and so I have a healthy respect for the blade. But I do have to agree with you here, that knife isn't something to learn from videos... Cheers, Eric --__--__-- Message: 12 From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:14:05 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] knife practice Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >> How many of you practice with a live blade when doing knife defense (at least some of the time)? I'm taught that if you won't do your technique with a live blade, then you shouldn't teach it to someone else. << At my school, using a steel blade (dull but functional) is an option for black belt test candidates over 18. Class training is done with wood, but approaching the test the candidate will practice with steel if they're planning to use it for their test. Even so, occasionally the use of steel for the test will be overruled by the test board in favor of spectator safety, as in the past we've seen poor knife control by the partner. (I used steel for my test and would have felt I was not ready had I been unwilling to do so). For demos, our black belts generally use steel unless spectators are too close or if prohibited by security at the particular facility. Since 9/11, it has become a major hassle to bring our weapons in when we perform in venues such as the Rose Bowl or Dodger Stadium. Understandable, but still a hassle. In training, wood should be respected just as much as steel. I have seen injury (bleeding) from wooden knives with rounded points and edges. Sharon T. Kim's Hapkido --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:54:39 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Sword stuff To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Wudang dragon sword is a form/set. That's all. Wudang fencing is just sword fighting and the style is from wudang. So just like how shaolin is known for it's masters of the staff (bo japanese), wudang is known for it's sword masters....in other words wudang has it's own kung fu, tai chi (that's different from the 2 better known style) and then to top of this ice cream sundae....the sword is the cherry. Just in case you're still not too clear I believe crouching tiger (or what ever it's called) used wudang sword fighting. It's just a style. So you have temple boxing (shaolin, wudang, etc transmitted through the temples) and you have family systems (where a martial art is transmitted through a family line). I think it's interesting to hear which school thinks which weapons are the most difficult and why....Now in my shaolin school I went to the chain whip was concidered the most difficult. But I often see wu shu stylists doing a chain whip set, or even the rope dart....now that is something. Jye "Burdick, Dakin R" wrote: Hmm. Still doesn't help much. I did a bunch of google searches and still didn't clarify what you were talking about. When I did a search for wudang dragon sword, I came up with one and only one (on Google this is surprising!) page: http://gate8.com/bbs-tai/messages/1997.html Dragon is "long," and when I search for dragon sword I come up with I find on another page that a "dragon sword" is a "qinglong dao" with "qinglong" being translated on various pages as "black dragon," "blue dragon," and "green dragon." Make up your minds people! There are some Wudang taijiquan styles that use a "dragon sword" which is a jen (straight double-edged sword) and some Bagua styles that use a "dragon sword" which is a dao (saber). Which is it? Jen dragon swords: A Tzuran men swimming dragon sword VCD is found at http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd/vcd335.htm. Dao dragon swords: I find a manual for the Wudang Bagua Feilong Jian (Wudang Bagua flying Dragon sword) is found at http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/sinicus/my_manuals.htm. Shaolin Wo Long Dao (Shaolin Crouching Dragon Broadsword) VCD can be found here: http://www.allmasters.com/vc00shaolw.html. And "As to weapons, one of the most demanding routines is the long handled broadsword called Qunqiu Da Dao, i.e. (spring and autumn) large broadsword, or qinglong yanyue dao, i.e. Qinglong crescent moon broadsword. Grandmaster Chen Zhenglei has recorded the routine for those who have reached the level, and strive to practice with a 3 kg training or 10 kg real helbard of this type. Following an intoduction on the history of Chen taijiquan and Chen Zhenglei (6.5 min.), and a complete view (3 min.) plus general explanations (3 min.), the routine is being introduced in 5 sections (10 min, 10 min., 8.5 min., 10 min., 14 min.). Each section is once fully displayed before and once after the single movements. The single movements are presented some 5 times each, including explanations and slow motion. The VCD closes with a final view of the whole routine (3 min.). All demonstrations are front view presentations. The VCD is part of a collection on Chinese martial arts produced by Guangzhou Beauty Culture Communication Co. Ltd. The ISRC is CN-M23-02-0010-0/V.G8. " The webpage for Guangzhou Beauty Culture is http://www.gzbeauty.com/ and looks like it has good VCDs. Anyone bought stuff from them yet? The only reference I can find to dao fencing is John Painter's site where he talks about (and has a photo of) soft sword fencing. Scoring, I imagine, is something like old style dry fencing? see: http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/weapon.htm By the way, if you are interested in learning how to fight with a dao, another thing to do is learn to fight with sticks. Double sticks from the Philippines is pretty close to double saber, although you still have to keep the difference between a stick art and a blade art in mind. But most of the Filipinos train with the knife in mind, so that reduces the problem. For that kind of thing, I would recommend the Dog Brothers (http://www.dogbrothers.com/index1.htm) but only if you like pain! Still trying to figure out what wudang dragon sword is! Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Ken Nessworthy" To: Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 23:30:10 -0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Sword and Fan Hyungs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi All, Any one know of a URL's that have fan or sword hyungs on it?? Pil Sung Ken :o) --__--__-- Message: 15 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:48:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Taekwondo specifics Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Hello all. >I have learnt from my instructor that I currently do Chung Do Kwan TKD. I am >curious as to how this differs from other 'styles' of TKD. Does anyone know >much about this particular style'? Check the various TKD history links available at martialartsresource.com along with the KMA FAQ. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 16 From: "Keith Causton" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 19:06:47 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Taekwondo Specifics Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>Hello all. >>I have learnt from my instructor that I currently do Chung Do Kwan TKD. I am >>curious as to how this differs from other 'styles' of TKD. Does anyone know >>much about this particular style'? >>Any input is appreciated. >>Regards,             >>David Ozanne Hi David, If you are interested in learning a lot about Taekwondo and Chung Do Kwan Style, then go to http://www.sos.mtu.edu/husky/tkdhist.htm to find lots of information that should give you a good idea. Theres a lot of reading but it should answer your question. Take Care,                                                                                     Keith ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest