Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 03:01:55 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #512 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Muye Dobo Tongji (Bernard Redfield) 2. Re: Muye Dobo Tongji (Ali Alnasser) 3. MA/LEO connection (DrgnSlyr5@aol.com) 4. CHAYON Ryu in New Orleans (Michael Falba) 5. Rubber knives = bad idea (Ray Terry) 6. Bear vs. Knife (David Weller) 7. Re: Broken legs (Ray Terry) 8. More knife stuff... (Eric Walker) 9. RE: Made in Australia (Bernard Maginnity) 10. Knife defense (J.R. West) 11. Waiting periods between belt tests (Keith Causton) 12. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Mu_Yei_ToBo_Tong_Ji_and_Hapkido_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 13. Re:_Mu_Yei_ToBo_Tong_Ji_and_Hapkido (Ray Terry) 14. Re: Different KHF (Ray Terry) 15. Student/friend (Charles Richards) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:43:14 -0500 From: Bernard Redfield To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Muye Dobo Tongji Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You can try Turtle Press, they have an english translation by Sang H. Kim Ph.D ISBN 1-880336-53-7 or ISBN 1-880336-448-0 (SOFT) CALL 1 800 778 8785 TO ORDER Bernard --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Ali Alnasser" To: Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:03:02 +0900 (KST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Muye Dobo Tongji Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Turtle Press has them for sale: http://www.turtlepress.com/ Look under the following section: Martial Arts Books > Korean MA/Culture [TABLE NOT SHOWN][TABLE NOT SHOWN][IMAGE] --__--__-- Message: 3 From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:07:44 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] MA/LEO connection Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Alain wrote: > (One reason a school in Korea needs to be under one of these government recognized schools is so students wanting to be police officers and such can get the required rank) < Would you please elaborate on this? Is rank in a MA or particular MA required for one to be hired as a police officer in Korea? Thanks, Sharon --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Michael Falba" To: Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:08:52 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] CHAYON Ryu in New Orleans Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey William: I do still train but I never trained with Moon, he was gone long before my time. Moon College is still where it always was, but it is now owned and operated by entirely different people. The new instructor, Master Ti Lee is extremely talented. Moon College is still a great school continuing to train in the Chayon Ryu tradition. Several folks departed when Master Moon departed one of which started a school at Elmwood Fitness Center in Harahan. Master Richard Foley is the Chief Instructor at Elmwood and has been at it for I guess about 10 years now. An absolutely phenomenal school that adheres to the Chayon Ryu tradition. Master Carl Lynch has trained with us and instructed us off and on as well as 4th Dan Ms. Linda Argular both of whom are from the original Moon College. Every year at Elmwood's anniversary we have a belt test and all of the old folks from the original Moon College meet, reminisce and look at old photos. It's great! The Chayon Ryu tradition is strong and growing in New Orleans. Mike --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:16:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Rubber knives = bad idea Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > wooden or dull metal training knives, not rubber or even hard > > rubber knives. Rubber knives bend. That is bad. > > This is good. Hard rubber knives that bend a little bit are far better > then blunt wooden or metal trainers that will still jam into your body > with a strongly committed thrust or lunge. > > As evidence, I present to you sport Fencing which has been dealing with > this *exact* problem for centuries. I'd say that "sport" is the operative term here... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:18:11 -0600 From: David Weller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Bear vs. Knife Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I just read this on the AP wire and thought it interesting given the recent discussions concerning knives on the list. Not sure what style martial art this guy knew, but I'm betting it's some form of "Oh crap, I'm gonna die if this sucker gets ahold of me-DO" The following is an excerpt. Thanks to the AP! > WILLIAMS LAKE, British Columbia - John Hirsch went toe-to-claw with a > black bear — and won. > Hirsch had only a 3 1/2-inch knife blade when he came across the bear > in his backyard in Williams Lake, about 190 miles northeast of > Vancouver. > "He came out of nowhere," said Hirsch, 61, an avid hunter and > outdoorsman. > "I can remember thinking that he's not stopping — he's coming," said > Hirsch. "I just didn't feel I had any place to go." > He was attacked Oct. 29 while checking on the 15 turkeys he and his > wife, Sharon, raise on their spread. > As the bear began to circle him, Hirsch faced it like a wrestler in a > ring. > "It was like a knife fight that you'd see in an old-time Western," he > said. The bear swatted out at him, but each time it lunged, he managed > to stab it. > "I couldn't tell you if the fight lasted three seconds or three > minutes," Hirsch said. > Three stabs to the bear's chest and one to its neck finally did the > bruin in. > It stood about 5 foot 7 inches to Hirsch's 5 feet 9 inches and > weighed 200 pounds, according to conservation officers who inspected > it. Hats off to Mr. Hirsch! have a groovy day, dave weller --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Broken legs To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:33:51 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > How did you break your leg? > Jye > > Ray Terry wrote: > I did this once many years ago. Mine wasn't bad enough to warrant a cast, > just cracked it. But it probably took a couple of years before things > were back to normal. Not that I couldn't workout, etc. But discomfort > and pain was present for a rather long time. At a test in ~1976. We had to do a wee bit of sparring as part of it. I had too much weight on my front leg as it was getting kicked... just below the knee. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Eric Walker" To: Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:38:47 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] More knife stuff... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thomas wrote: "1) Most criminal shootings occur at a range of 7 feet or less. Often around 3 feet. (Not yards, FEET.) " ---Truly we had a graphic demonstration of this on the TV a couple of weeks ago. Remember the client that shot the lawyer it was very close range. I kept thinking to my self "Why doesn't he grab the guy's hand?" I've never had a gun pulled on me, but I lived for some time in Atlanta, and the friends and co-workers that I knew that had been mugged were always confronted at close range. I must concede that it is better to hand over your wallet than take a chance at catching a bullet, but then there was a time in New Orleans when the muggers were just shooting their victims event after they gave up their wallet. Mr. LaCava wrote: "With that said, I understand your thoughts on the subject and they really seem logical, but in general, unless a person has been in a situation where a firearm has been introduced, they may think differently about the situation. It's similar to a person with no children saying that raising kids isn't that difficult." ---This also is so true, but I would submit that until you are actually faced with the situation, you should train through re-creation of a given situation. I'm sure some people that train in hand to hand self defense have had situations arise in which you have used your training. I know I have, and when it happened my body just sort of took over and quickly did what I've been training it to do. So I would think it would go with the gun/knife scenario. Also I haven't had children yet, I'm the oldest of seven kids, so I have no delusions! :) Maybe that's why I don't have any yet... Mr. Burdick wrote: " I still say it is crazy. As I mentioned, people I know have taken people's eyes out like this, and they were experienced martial artists who were just doing a FORM. Even if you agree with this training with live steel, you can't go full speed and with commitment unless you are willing to kill a new guy everyday." and: "Why are you training with a knife? What is the purpose? Are you going to carry one around? If so, you are asking for trouble if you ask me." ---I've been talking about defense against knife attack here, not sparring or attacking technique. I'm not sure if all of us are on the same page, but this is what I'm talking about with the live steel issue... Eric --__--__-- Message: 9 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Made in Australia Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:25:43 +1100 From: "Bernard Maginnity" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Tink I hate to disappoint but my ancestors committed no crime. As can be seen from my surname I am of Irish descent. The Ancestors missed the boat, saved up their pennies and PAID for the trip thinking it was a holiday cruise. Yes and our other claim to fame is that the Great Great Grandfather was made famous through being shot by Mad Dan Morgan the bushranger. Bernie Maginnity Bernie... Since you brought it up...I have to ask you the same thing I ask all my friends and acquaintances in Oz... What crime did YOUR Ancestors commit? The One and Only "TINK" " NOTICE The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. Mission Australia has implemented anti-virus software, and whilst all care is taken, it is the recipient's responsibility to ensure that any attachments are scanned for viruses prior to use. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "J.R. West" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:18:20 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Knife defense Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net One of the reasons that I require my upper level students to shy away from rubber and wooden knives is their is no sense of "urgency" while practicing techniques against a weapon that, intellectually, we know can't really harm is if we make a mistake...Do I use a live blade?...sort of... I have a few old bayonets ( about 15 inches long ) that have been dulled down and the points rounded off with a bench grinder, and they are rather long and imposing in class, which I find to be a good thing. It has been my experience that if techniques are ALWAYS done with rubber or wood, if a real encounter takes place, God forbid, the first thing that will happen is the realization that this situation is for real, but if a person has, if only in his mind, had to face a relatively live blade in a training environment, then the situation will not be quite so shocking, and MUCH more attention will be placed on focus and accuracy of technique if the practice blade. I have been cut twice, and once I never knew it until well after it happened...As far as "knife or gun", any idiot can pull a trigger, so I am more wary of that type of bottom feeder, and even at my age, I can still attempt to outrun a moron with a knife.......J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Keith Causton" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 20:30:36 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Waiting periods between belt tests Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello all! I just wanted to poll everyone's opinion on how long a student should train before he/she should be allowed to go for their next belt test. I personally think that there should be at LEAST a three month waiting period in which the student should practise getting their new pattern down as well as everything else that they must know according to the clud they go to. My club, and I'm sure there are others, test coloured belts every month; basicly to real in the cash. Some students only show up to class about two times a week, which means that they are only getting eight classes before their next test. (provided they dont practice at home, which most of them at my club don't, and should.) That is just not enough and I wanted to see if other people agree with me. Also, what are some of the waiting periods between belt tests for some of your clubs? Thanks, Keith  ------------------------------------------------------------------------ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:14:03 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Mu_Yei_ToBo_Tong_Ji_and_Hapkido_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sorry, Folks. We have been over this ground a number of times in the past and I have found no evidence to support this view except when it comes to spinning things for a certain end. The term "hapkido" has never been successfully attributed to a single person, though oral tradition always brings us back around to GM Ji. Fine. Whatever. The fact is that usage of this term can no longer be attributed exclusively to GM Ji--- to GM Choi Yong Sul ---- to Daito-ryu AJJ. Now if folks want to keep wrestling over this until the 2nd Coming of Christ that certainly is OK with me. Everybody needs a hobby. But the fact is that there has been as much input from China as Korea as Japan in the development of this art and attributing its development to a single personality has been demonstrated repeatedly to my satisfaction to be nothing more than a way of modern practitioners to funnel money in their particular direction. Now, to save us all a lot of time and trouble let me remind people of where this arguement is going to take us yet once again. 1.) There is no documentation supporting Choi Yong Sul mastering Daito-ryu AJJ. Some Koreans were so recognized but there is no documentation for Choi. Even Choi himself did not use the term DRAJJ but did use "yawara" until cajoled into using a different term by subsequent generations of students. 2.) GM Ji teaches one version of the Hapkido arts. GM Lim teaches one version of the hapkido arts. GM Kim teaches a version. GM Lee teaches a version. GM Suh teaches a version.So does GM Chang, GM Rim, GM Myung etc., etc.,. The rest is just a matter of folks arguing for their place at the recognition and validation trough. 3.) If the people in positions of power were half as worried about teaching a valid Korean martial curriculum they would spend a helluva lot more time studying works like the MYTBTJ and a lot less time arguing for why the stuff they are lifting from Japanese traditions is REALLY Korean to start with. I get just a little tired of folks teaching Kendo and representing it as "Korean" swordwork when it is possible to study documented Korean swordwork if it wasn't so very inconvenient for these same people. The same goes for teaching Okinawan staff as Korean Chang Bong, nunchukas as Korean Flail, Japanese Shotokan as Taekwondo and Judo as Korean Yudo. The Korean never needed the Japanese to teach them to fight. 4.) Finally, I can say honestly that I was sure we had gotten beyond crap like this. If it means that much to you to continue to perpetuate this sort of garbage, I am noone to tell you different and you needn't believe anything I have to say. It remains that I make a point of being able to say something more than "cuz it makes me happy to believe it" or "cuz GM says so." Your truthes and welcome to them. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:58:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:_Mu_Yei_ToBo_Tong_Ji_and_Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Whatever. The fact is that usage of this term can no longer be attributed > exclusively to GM Ji--- to GM Choi Yong Sul ---- to Daito-ryu AJJ. Now if > folks want to keep wrestling over this until the 2nd Coming of Christ that > certainly is OK with me. Everybody needs a hobby. But the fact is that > there has been as much input from China as Korea as Japan in the > development of this art and attributing its development to a single ... Ummm, you actually see as much in Hapkido coming directly from China to Korea as we see from the Takeda, Choi, Ji et al route? If so, me thinks you're not seeing all that well in your advanced years... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Different KHF To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 20:02:11 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Alain, Do you have contact info for this 'new' Korea HKD Fed? URL, mailing addr, fax, etc. I'd like to add the org's info to our listing of Korean martial arts organizations. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:39:13 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Student/friend Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> My question is how do you go about training a student and not develop a friendship with them after a period of time. In my dojang we take after our own name and tend to view one another as an extended family by the time they reach the advanced underbelt ranks if not by the time they reach the intermediate ranks. Along the same train of thought would an instructor be willing to truly spend the time and effort to develop a student to their fullest potential if they did not have a personal relationship with them. I find that I can not view my students as "customers" I view them as close acquaintances if not personal friends after a period of time. This may not be what is preached at some of the MA business seminars but I find my retention of my students, both beginning and advanced, to be better than a number of commercial schools that I have been to. ======================================================= Dear Rich, You hit the nail on the head. How could I put someone through four years of training with me and listening to my lectures and feel no bond. Moja Kwan = Harmony House. All our students and karate moms are family. We go to dinner together after tournaments, and our annual seminar (ask GM Hodder and Master Mac how we party in the ATL after a good seminar). We share CD's on the trip to Jackson twice a year and my senior students meet me for business lunch when we are in the same area. Just like Karate teaches us the application of heavy and light force we learn to have in and out of dojang relationships. In class I am Sabom (nim) and even the moms call me Master Richards in front of their kids. When I call a karate mom at home to talk about their child we are on first name basis. My rules are in the dojang, dobohk on use Master Richards, sir or Sabom nim. Out of class and out of dobohk it's Charles for adults or MC from my teen and pre-teenage mutants. The trick is to treat everyone the same and have rules and procedures about the studio. The hardest part I've seen is walking away during a conversation about another student/parent between other clients. The only other "strained" moments are the rare "you're not ready" conversations or heaven forbid "BTW you owe the school money." Which is why I use a billing company and don't charge seperate for testing. During those rare situations the adult seniors have affectionately refered to me as "800", for the 800 pound Gorilla, as in the joke, where does the 800 pound Gorilla sit?....wherever he wants to :-) In summary, what we lack in commercial size, we make up for in family fun. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest