Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 07:18:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 10 #513 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1600 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: How about Chinese ??? (John Frankl) 2. Re: Area of Focus (eleusis) 3. Request (John Johnson) 4. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Mu_Yei_To_Bo_Tong_Ji_&_Hapkido_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 5. RE: Guns and Knives (Farral, Kim) 6. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_MYTBTJ_&_Hapkido_?= (bsims@midwesthapkido.com) 7. Re: hapkido the name (K. Barends) 8. Re: More knife stuff... (Chris LaCava) 9. RE: Handgun attack citations (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 10. RE: Gup time in grade (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 11. Re:_Mu_Yei_ToBo_Tong_Ji_and_Hapkido (Jesse Segovia) 12. trainingblades.com (Ray Terry) 13. RE: Re: Gun and Knife Dist (Kirk Lawson) 14. Re: Broken legs (eleusis) 15. Repy to "Your my kind of Minister" (Dr. Daryl Covington) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "John Frankl" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: How about Chinese ??? Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:34:22 +0900 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, That is a tough question. I do most of my Korean and Chinese research in the original, but I do know what a pain it can be to juggle Wade-Giles and Pinyin. Adding to the confusion, for Korean at least, is that many authors elect to use their own idiosyncratic systems--I would not be surprised to see this in Sang Kim's translation. For the time being, may just have to cast your net wide and do multiple searches in Pinyin and W-G, and perhaps a couple of Korean romanizations. If you need anything parsed from Korean or classical Chinese, I would be glad to help. John >From: >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: How about Chinese ??? >Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 14:57:15 -0600 (CST) > >Dear John et al: > >".....I hope this proves useful. There are a couple of accepted "standard" >systems of romanizing Korean. No matter which you choose, of course, >students will often be far from the proper pronunciation. But it is nice >that you are putting forth the effort to get them in the ballpark....." > >I asked this question of Thomas Chen on the SWORD FORUM INTERNATIONAL >after a fine reprint of an entry on Gen Qi Jiguang from the Dictionary of >Ming Biographies. I had attempted to use the same text to locate other >notable generals and had failed miserably. Of course I had noted that my >rendering of Gen Qi's name was much different from that of the Dictionary >(Geheral Chi Chi Juang vis General Qi, Jiguang vis Gen. Ki Chi Kwang). I >was sure that Wade-Giles was a standard but that not withstanding is there >some rendering of names in Chinese that will increase the probability of >research success? Its not bad enough that names and titles change as a >life progresses, but there are even differences after the person dies!!! > >Best Wishes, > >Bruce >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "eleusis" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Area of Focus Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:14:24 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I suggest you pull up the google search engine and type in Martial Arts for a million sites. The questions you need to ask yourselves is what are your goals? Self defense? Weight Loss? Family bonding? Self control? And then compare the systems. Cost may also be a factor so also look into the costs each involves. For example testing for belts? Board fees (for breaking) or tournament fees if your school requires you go to a tournament etc. It can become very expensive. Do your homework and go into it with eyes wide open. Also check out the various Sensi/Masters in the particular art you decide to follow. Some are reformed hooligans, others learned men/women and still others pure businessmen out for a buck not the spirit. Rich Taekwondo Student (Green Belt) and US Soldier Chicago Illinois ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Anderson To: 'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net' Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 2:03 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Area of Focus My family, (myself, my wife and son) are looking to begin training in one of the practiced martial arts. Of all the different variations and forms, beliefs, philosophies, etc. we are a little indecisive on where to focus to say the least. Does anyone know of a website that might detail what is involved in the different martial arts, training, practices, etc. so that we might further research our choices unbiased? Please excuse the 'newbie' question, I hope no one takes offense to me posting such to this list. M Anderson _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "John Johnson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:06:01 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Request Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have been asked by Master Bae, the director of the KHF, to obtain addresses of as many martial arts publications as possible. I can easy find those for "Black Belt", "Taekwondo Times", and the "Journal of Asian Martial Arts", but I would like to get the addresses to some European publications and any others outside the States. Thanks a lot in advance for any and all help. John A. Johnson III, Taekwondo (Independent) III, Korea Hapkido Federation KHF IT Team Member _________________________________________________________________ Concerned that messages may bounce because your Hotmail account is over limit? Get Hotmail Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 06:22:45 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Mu_Yei_To_Bo_Tong_Ji_&_Hapkido_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Greg: "....The book known as MOO-YAE-DO-BO-TONG-JI has many detailed examples of Hap Ki Do techniques....." I am not sure that I agree with your assessment but invite you to purchase a copy of the most recent translation by Dr, Kim from Turtle Press and see what you think. I have also seen copies on sale at Borders, Barnes and Nobles and on Amazon.com. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 07:40:36 -0500 From: "Farral, Kim" To: "Dojang " Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Guns and Knives Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Pil Seung... I have to agree with Master West on the idea of rubber of wood knives vs. real knives...however... I do use both when training...I have an assortment of bayonets and straight blades (as opposed to folding blades) which I use for advanced adult students...the attacker is either myself or a senior rank with experience in handling a knife...one black belt student in particular was a former marine...which worked well when he stopped picking his nails and teeth with the knife... I use the rubber and wooden knives just as a general practice tool for children and junior ranks to get use to the idea of trying to defend against the blade...as is typical...it becomes more play than practice as the students ...knowing they cannot be hurt or injured...get carried away with the play...especially since the defensive techniques are walk through for teaching purposes...the attacker takes full advantage of the fact that they are not having bones broken or being countered with any substantial force and try to show how they can cut or stab their victim regardless of the defensive moves... When real knives are introduced...the practice becomes far more real and serious as the danger element is introduced...techniques are always performed slowly and gradually to get the student use to the idea of defending against a real blade...with more advanced and experienced students...the walk through is performed two maybe three times before going full speed...fortunately...neither myself not my students have been injured as we use as much control as possible with only very experienced people as the attackers...on occasion... I will use a sharpened blade with the very experienced just to demonstrate the seriousness and danger of the encounter...whether in practice or real life...otherwise...like Master West I use a dulled blade with rounded point...injury is still possible... The first thing I tell my students is that regardless of how good you think you are...never go against a knife unless you are 100% sure you can beat it...and if you are...plan on getting cut or stabbed... When it comes to using guns... I use to use a starters pistol for the "Bang" it created as a scare factor...now I just use a cap gun...I use the gun ONLY to demonstrate the limited capability of defense at any distance outside of arms reach...and then the limited capability within arms reach...Basically I try to explain that this isn't the movies...unless you are 100% sure... and then some...you can beat the bullet...you have two options...doing whatever the attacker says...or running... Though there are defenses against a gun...I stress the fact that the choice you make could end your life...or someone else's...at the time of decision.. You have to be able to accept and live with consequences...the same with the knife... MHO... Pil Seung The One and Only "TINK" ************************************ This email and any files transmitted with it are proprietary and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT Industries, Inc. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. ITT Industries accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email. ************************************ --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 06:42:23 -0600 (CST) From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_MYTBTJ_&_Hapkido_?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: "......Ummm, you actually see as much in Hapkido coming directly from China to Korea as we see from the Takeda, Choi, Ji et al route?....." The short answer is "yes". The problem is that there is more money to be made in selling what is currently on the market than doing research and giving some credit where credit is due. Just follow me on this for a moment. In Hapkido we often are quick to say that Daito-ryu AJJ provides a common source for Hapkido just as it does for Aikido, and by extension Shorinji Kempo and other arts whose originators studied DRAJJ. In like manner, the Kwon Bup chapter of the MYTBTJ is based on Gen Qi's Boxing Canon from the Jin Xiao Shin Shu which in turn borrowed heavily from Taizu Long Fist. This is the same material that provided a foundation for Chen TCC and by extension, Yang, Wu and Sun TCC. Now if people would just take the time and effort to examine the postures and methods of the Kwon Bup they would see that most of the DRAJJ material was already in place in the MYTBTJ a couple of centuries before Choi and his Japanese material. What is more, the various strains of Chinese Boxing in Korean deserve as much recognition for their input into the Hapkido arts as does DRAJJ. For myself I believe the following simile' is valid. If a people had a culture in which a concussive art was already extant albeit required significant investment of time and trouble to give it recognition, and could make money by simply advocating a newer more simplistic art such as Western Boxing I believe you would see the same thing as what we are discussing in Hapkido arts. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "K. Barends" Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:01:04 +0100 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: hapkido the name Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > The term "hapkido" has never been successfully attributed to a single > person, though oral tradition always brings us back around to GM Ji. What about Moriei Ueshiba? Wasn't he the first to use this term? Where did he get it from? Is/was it a common term, or did he actually 'invent' it? -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Chris LaCava" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:20:08 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: More knife stuff... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Eric W. <> I'm with ya there. I'm sure we all know those people that say, "Oh, well if that was me, I would have taken that gun/knife away and took his temeperature with it, and I ain't taliking orally." But when put in the situation, things playout differently. Not because their just talking tough (because they may actually think that), but because it's different when the time has come to put things into action and the "security blanket" of the dojang is not there. So I totally agree with your statement with the understanding that nothing ever goes as planned and be prepared for that. Eric W. <> lol :) Take care Eric. Chris "from CT" LaCava's Martial Arts Westport, CT. http://lmaa.bravepages.com Online Store- http://www.cafepress.com/hapkidogear _________________________________________________________________ Send a QuickGreet with MSN Messenger http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/cdp_games --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 07:55:07 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Handgun attack citations Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thomas, I would really appreciate it if you could give the citations for your statements below. I know I have heard these things before, but I would love to have the source material. Thanks. Danny Dunn <<<<<<<<<<1) Most criminal shootings occur at a range of 7 feet or less. Often around 3 feet. (Not yards, FEET.) 2) Some study which I can't cite at the moment (I'm not at home at my normal computer) cited a statistics review whose conclusion was that in general, most victims of crimes (that included a firearms) were menaced from less than arms length distance. As an aside, the national criminal accuracy average at 3-7 feet was 1 in 17 a year or so ago. :) Please, please, let Hollywood keep telling criminals to hold their guns sideways and just blast away without aiming! Thomas >>>>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:22:42 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Gup time in grade Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Keith, It take kids about 6 - 6.5 years to get to dan, and about 4 for adults that make 4 hours of in-class training a week. That is 2 classes, as my classes are 2 hours long except for the younger kids below green belt. You can do the math based on the gup system your school uses. Remember, the quality of the student depends on the quality of instructor and the time spent training. Danny Dunn <<<<>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:40:30 -0500 From: Jesse Segovia To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:_Mu_Yei_ToBo_Tong_Ji_and_Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You'll probably ignore this post as you have all my recent replies to your posts, but ... From: >2.) GM Ji teaches one version of the Hapkido arts. GM Lim teaches one >version of the hapkido arts. GM Kim teaches a version. GM Lee teaches a >version. GM Suh teaches a version.So does GM Chang, GM Rim, GM Myung etc., >etc.,. The rest is just a matter of folks arguing for their place at the >recognition and validation trough. > I'm familiar with two basic families of Korean Hapkido. One is very much like Japanese Jujitsu with very little kicking, no defenses against boxing-style fighting and no cane- this is Hapkido as taught by Choi YongSul. The other is what most of us here accept as contemporary Hapkido: - formal joint locking techniques taught from the wrist, then the elbow, then the shoulder, etc. - formal defenses against boxing-style punches - basic kicks including vary idiosyncratic kicks such as the low thrusting kick with the foot parallel to the ground; the scissoring, hooking kick done with the heel coming back towards the kicker's groin area (used to strike the opponent's outside thigh area); a cutting kick done forwards and upwards striking with the outside edge of the foot, etc. - advanced athletic kicks such as the 360° spinning heel kick, low 360° spinning sweep, etc. - advanced jumping kicks, such as double front kick, double roundhouse kicks, jumping front split kick, etc. NOTE: These kicks DO NOT come from Japanese karate or from TaeKwonDo as it existed at the time this curriculum was first assembled. - weapons including the cane and the short stick (danbong) - formal defenses against basic and advanced kicks - formal defenses against judo grabs and throws - formal defenses against weapons I've never read the MYTBTJ - is this what I've just described? This family of Hapkido, which is again, the majority of modern Hapkido taught today (as well as KukSoolWon and HwaRangDo), was first put into a formal curriculum by Ji HanJae. The first Hapkido book published in the '60s was GM Ji's curriculum (a large photo of Ji's face is right on page 5, across from the title page). Choi YongSul's picture is not even in this book. Bruce, you accuse anyone who accepts GM Ji's role in the development of Hapkido as looking for money. I get no money for saying this. But I'd like to know what's in it for you to badmouth GM Ji and belittle his contribution to the art. I remember a post of yours from years ago saying how disappointed you were after attending one of GM Ji's seminars. How does keeping Gm Ji from his rightful place in Hapkido history benefit you? > 4.) Finally, I can say honestly that I was sure we had gotten beyond crap >like this. > Sorry, I guess we haven't. You still have lots more work to do, Bruce. :) As I understand it, Choi YongSul taught pretty much what he felt like - there was no formal teaching method; his favorite students learned techniques no one else did. Gm Ji is one of those people who learns something and then starts writing things down in books, starts to see how things fit together, what works and what doesn't. He also worked out, on his own, with trained boxers to learn their styles and how to defend against it; he did the same with trained Judo men. He and Kim MooWoong also evidently developed the Hapkido kicking curriculum with heavy influence from Korean Taekkyun. And he evidently formalized the cane fighting and small stick fighting we have today in Hapkido. Yes, there are only certain ways the human body can strike, can bend, can be broken, but the formal Hapkido system most Hapkido arts teach was formalized by GM Ji HanJae. What's the problem? Jesse --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 07:14:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] trainingblades.com Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Looking for a good training blade, check out trainingblades.com. One model that I like is: trainingblades.com/osCommerce/product_info.php?cPath=21_27&products_id=30 $19.95. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:19:00 -0500 From: Kirk Lawson Organization: Heapy Engineering To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ("THE$DOJA@SMTP {the_dojang@martialartsresource.net}"), thomcat@binary.net ("thomcat@binary.net") Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Gun and Knife Dist Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 14:20:53 -0600 (CST) > From: thomcat@binary.net (J Thomas Howard) > Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Gun and Knife Distance... > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > 1) Most criminal shootings occur at a range of 7 feet or less. Often > around 3 feet. (Not yards, FEET.) Same with Self Defense shooting. Very short range. > 2) Some study which I can't cite at the moment (I'm not at home at my > normal computer) cited a statistics review whose conclusion > was that in > general, most victims of crimes (that included a firearms) > were menaced from less than arms length distance. CVS (Crime and Victimization Survey) maybe? Maybe not. If you look up this resource, please send me the details, I'm curious. > As an aside, the national criminal accuracy average at 3-7 > feet was 1 in 17 a year or so ago. :) I'm very much interested in the source for this statistic, as well as similar accuracy measures for LEO and Civilian SD shootings. I heard from a comparatively reliable source that "FBI stats show" a civilian SD accuracy of 45% but was never able to find the source of the quote. If true, this compares quite favorably with a 1994 NYPD study by Massad Ayoob showing a hit rate of only 31% for the average NY beat cop (up from an earler 17%) [Law and Order, June 1998]. I am very interested in the source for your stats, please e-mail it to me at your convienence. Peace favor your sword --- "In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use." -Achille Marozzo, 1536 --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "eleusis" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Broken legs Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:48:29 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It was my first tournament and I was in the habit of blocking kicks with my leg rather than avoiding them like Master Park was trying to teach me. A large Samoan guy threw a kick and snapped the fibular bone clean in half. I thought it was just a serious cramp and finished the round. But the second round when I tried to move it was really sore and then when I did kick with it the pain nearly blinded me so I forfeit. I did wind up with second place (US Open Taekwondo Championship in Rolling Meadows in north Chicago) and a nifty medallion but 6 weeks in a cast and three in a walking thing that I was able to get out of two weeks ago. The pain now is in the lower portion where the ligaments and such attach to the ankle. I have to be very careful when I pivot on that leg and do jumps like jumping jacks. I won't be sparring again until at least January I'm afraid. But I look forward to an eventual recovery. Rich ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 5:33 PM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Broken legs > How did you break your leg? > Jye > > Ray Terry wrote: > I did this once many years ago. Mine wasn't bad enough to warrant a cast, > just cracked it. But it probably took a couple of years before things > were back to normal. Not that I couldn't workout, etc. But discomfort > and pain was present for a rather long time. At a test in ~1976. We had to do a wee bit of sparring as part of it. I had too much weight on my front leg as it was getting kicked... just below the knee. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 07:59:26 -0800 (PST) From: "Dr. Daryl Covington" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Repy to "Your my kind of Minister" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray, Jesus Said Blessed are the Peacemakers. Isn't that the name of a .44 Mag? Even Jesus told his disciples there would be a time they would need a sword, and if they didn't have one, to sell their cloak and buy one. He was no Whimp. If someone breaks into my home and hurts my family, and I do nothing about it, Im not a peacemaker, Im an idiot. I have let a criminal go free. On the other hand, if someone breaks into my home, and they die of lead poisoning from my .45, or .44, or .357, or .9 mm, or AR15, or which ever weapon I pick up, Then my family is safe, and soceity is as well. I just became a peacemaker. Peace, daryl --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com Copyright 1994-2003: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest